ACLU Info?

[evmori]

pack,

I bait no one! All I try to do is point out that Merlyn has an agenda that is critically flawed and the only purpose of his agenda is to destroy the BSA. Call it what you like! You are entitled to your opinion!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[firstpusk]

Ed,

I think that Sen. Moynihan once said, "You're entitled to your own opinion; you are not entitled to your own facts."

 

You may not think that the public schools are government agencies but your unfounded opinion will not change the fact that they are.

[Torveaux]

I must say that I disagree heartily with Merlin's thought process, but his goal is a good one.

 

Having units chartered directly by public schools is a bad idea for both.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution as the document is silent on the issue. Attempts to tie it to the 1st Amendment are spurious at best. Those using such spurious ties are merely attempting to bend the law into their own political nirvana.

 

The BSA should avoid ties to public schools because the public schools often represent and encourage the opposite of the goals of the BSA.

 

That is not to say that both organizations should not try to work together to do what is best for children. The mission of the public schools is to educate the populace. The BSA helps in that goal. Public schools should encourage participation in the BSA or other similar groups, regardless of the religious aspects of those organizations. To do otherwise DOES directly contravene the Constitution as it prohibits the "free exercise thereof". Schools must either permit BSA and other similar organizations to meet in their facilites or they can permit no meetings whatsoever. That includes PTA/PTO meetings or any other function not directly educating children.

 

If we really want a non-religious (as opposed to atheistic)education experience, only actual facts could be taught. Courses must be reduced to Mathematics, Grammar, and such. All social engineering, most science, and literature/music must be excluded as it reflects the collective beliefs of one or more individuals and could be construed as religious or anti-religious.

 

In short, get units sponsored by civic groups, but have them meet in schools and have schools encourage participation.

[tortdog]

First, the Supreme Court is full of religious symbols. I don't see how that could be questioned.

 

Second, what's the problem with a school (or city) sponsoring a BSA unit? They do in Houston. We believe that the United States is formed under God. We don't believe it belongs to the Catholics, Mormons, Baptists or Jews...but we do believe it belongs to God. What's the problem with a government that believes in the creator sponsoring a BSA unit that believes in good citizenship and a duty to God and country?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

tortdog writes:

what's the problem with a school (or city sponsoring a BSA unit? They do in Houston.

 

In order to sponsor a BSA unit, the sponsor must agree to exclude atheists; public schools and other government agents can't do this.

 

We believe that the United States is formed under God.

 

Well, I don't. Guess what? The government has to treat both of us equally, regardless of what our religious opinions are. That includes youth groups sponsored by public schools.

 

We don't believe it belongs to the Catholics, Mormons, Baptists or Jews...but we do believe it belongs to God.

 

Well, I don't.

 

What's the problem with a government that believes in the creator

 

Uh, no. "A government" is not an individual with a religious opinion and religious rights, it's a collection of people with varying opinions. Saying "a government" believes in a creator is nonsense.

 

If you're just arguing that the majority religious opinion should be enforced by the government (which is unconstitutional under US law, though plenty of other countries do so), come right out and say that. But don't try to say that "a government" believes something. It can't, it isn't a sentient being.

 

sponsoring a BSA unit that believes in good citizenship and a duty to God and country.

 

Government entities in the US can no more do this than they can sponsor a youth group that excludes Jews, or that only allows Catholics.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[NWScouter]

Ed,

The University of Washington and Seattle University are educational institutions in the same city, the former is public (government run) and the latter is private (Jesuit run).

 

Everett High and Archbishop Murphy High are both educational institutions, the first is government run and the second is private.

 

Educational institution describe what they do not who owns them.

 

UW and Everett High cannot not sponsor scout units because of BSA restriction on membership while PLU and Archbishop Murphy may.

 

 

In state consitution of Washington no money may be spent for religious education or purpose.

 

[evmori]

So we let the special interest groups determine what is OK because they scream the loudest? I don't think so! The 1st Amendment has nothing to do with the separation of church & state & nowhere in the Constitution does it state church & state must be separate! What the Constitution states is we are free to practice whatever religion we want without the government tossing us in jail because it isn't the religion of the government! The United States has no government religion! By allowing a public school to charter a BSA unit or a KKK clan or anything else isn't establishing ANY religion!

 

I use to think Firesign Theater was funny. Knowing who is employed by Firesign Theater I have changed my opinion & I encourage any Scouters who feel the same as I do to no longer listen, attend, purchase or in any other way support Firesign Theater. And tell your friends, too.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, do you think George Carlin is Funny?

[evmori]

OGE,

Yes I do. I think there are times you are funny, too!

[OldGreyEagle]

George Carlin and I may be funny, but I do know one thing he is that I am not, George Carlin is one of the biggest (correct use of word?) Atheists I know.

 

No more Hippy Dippy Weatherman for the Edster

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

George Carlin and the Firesign guys go way back, and laugh.com, which is part-owned by Carlin, brought a lot of Firesign albums back into print on CD.

[evmori]

OGE,

When did George Carlin start trying to destroy the BSA? Musta missed that one! Unless Merlyn is George Carlin in disguise!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Prairie_Scouter]

So Ed,

 

>>So we let the special interest groups determine what is OK because they scream the loudest?

 

Does that mean, then, that, since conservative Christians are a special interest group like any other, you'd be against their push to pass laws in regards to gay marriage and abortion?

 

 

George Carlin has been and continues to be just hilarious.

[evmori]

Prairie,

Conservative Christians are a special interest group. But they represent the majority more than the atheists do. Atheists want you to believe the Constitution say there should be no religion in government when actually there should be no government in religion. They have it backwards!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Torveaux]

Sorry Merlin, but your position would only make sense if the same public schools refused to sponsor similar groups that allowed atheists.

 

I agree that we don't really want public schools as COs for Packs and Troops, but your logic is faulty and does not reflect an understanding of the Constitution. It does agree with the opinions of some individuals, but it is not consistent with the document that is the Supreme Law of the Land.