ACLU Info?

[tortdog]

It's in the penumbra somewhere. The founders were going to write it down and actually vote on it, but they didn't have the time in 1787.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Tort,

 

Maybe there was a filibuster

 

Schleining,

You're asking the wrong person. I've said that that was what I think was the position of the ACLU, not my own personal position. I don't think putting a Nativity scene in the city hall lobby violates the Constitution, for example. (Well, mostly I've seen the ACLU take these on after prompting by atheist groups......). I also don't have a problem with the government providing support to religious groups per se, as long as the support is provided freely to any religious groups that ask for it and there aren't any "favorites". The danger is that some religious group starts getting preferential treatment, and at that point I think you start to get on shaky Constitutional grounds.

 

However, I don't think that the ACLU has taken action against BSA on those grounds, have they? Sounds to me that those cases aren't about religion. Those cases seem to be about some government entity providing support to BSA in violation of their own non-discrimination policies, which in many cases would define BSA as a disciminatory organization under the terms of those town's policies.

[Prairie_Scouter]

And, Schleining,

 

I suppose that the inevitable question about your comment to "KEEP God in our nation as we see God" is, "who's "we""?

 

As long as "we" is big enough to take in all interpretations of some sort of higher being or beings as well as accepting those who don't believe in a supreme being, then in my mind, at least, that would seem to be ok.

 

One problem I see today is it's not enough for religious groups to have their beliefs and be happy with that, they have a need to legislate their beliefs into law so that their beliefs apply to everyone else. That, to me anyway, is a much bigger problem, and comes much closer to the establishment of a state religion, than worrying about a 10 commandments display or a nativity scene.

[tortdog]

I think the Constitution was written solely to prevent Congress from passing legislation institution an official religion on the People, similar to the Church of England. That would also include legislation that prevented the people from worshipping as they please (within societal boundaries).

[packsaddle]

I know it's a fine point, but it was my understanding that the ACLU mostly takes action against the government whether local or national. Have they ever taken direct action against BSA and NOT a government entity?

[schleining]

We is We the People.... The People that decide and as of the last election continue to decide that God is important in America.

 

Anyway-

 

I find it interesting that the ACLU loves attacking the BSA for "UNCONSTITUTIONAL" acts....

The interesting part is that the Congress of the United States is the Charter Organization of the Boy Scouts of America... we better not tell anyone from the ACLU... they will make us change the Charter to Wal Mart or something.

 

Jerry

[Prairie_Scouter]

 

Schleining,

 

>>We is We the People.... The People that decide and as of the last election continue to decide that God is important in America.

 

Wait. Are you saying that if the Democrats had won the last election, their position would have been that God is no longer important in America? You Know, OldGreyEagle once accused me of making what he considered to be the second most outrageous statement he's seen on the forum; I think you've just replaced me.

 

Ooooooh, boy, you know us Democrats/liberals. Just a bunch of old devil worshippers waiting for our chance to run the country to ruin.

 

Just curious, but when has the ACLU attacked the BSA for "unconstitutional acts"? I don't dispute that they might have done that at some time, but hasn't the ACLU activities regards BSA actually been against organizations supporting BSA in conflict with their own non-discrimination policies? I didn't think that they had taken on the BSA directly. Be interesting if they did, I guess.

 

 

[ScoutNerd]

Prairie,

We'll let him answer for himself, but I believe by the term "attacking" Scheinling didn't mean legally... attacking a organization's support structure might not be attacking the organization directly, but no one would disagree, that it's making it really tough on the organization...

anyway... I still got a few good hours of the night to keep writing final project reports... G'night fellas

-Curtis :-D

[packsaddle]

ScoutNerd, Prairie_Scouter, I think another way to express it is that the ACLU is attempting to DEFEND everyone's rights under the constitution. In the sense that certain groups may expect unconstitutional support from the public, those groups may consider the ACLU's demand for fairness to be an attack. Diabolical, huh, Schleining?

But while BSA and the strip club down the street both have the right to decide who gets in the door etc., they don't have the right to get preferential treatment from government. And where such occurs, I am glad, for the sake of everyone, that the ACLU or the NAACP or other similar organizations are ready to defend all of us AND the constitution.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Pack,

It'd be interesting to see if the BSA is the sole target of the ACLU's actions in this area or if they've taken on other groups as well. My suspicion is that if, say, the "Mormon Youth Club" or some such organization was using public facilities in a similar fashion, the ACLU would be all over them as well. The ACLU, I think, provides a valuable service to the country by keeping these issues in the public eye, whether we agree with their actions or not. It makes my stomach turn when they defend the right of something like the American Nazi Party to meet and display their views in public, but that's because of my feelings about the ANP, not their right to meet. Personally, I don't have a problem with a Boy Scout unit meeting in my local school. But, if you allow that, then you also, I think, have to allow for the possibility of the American Nazi Party or some other organization demanding equal access. I wouldn't be so happy about that. Not sure where you draw the line.

[tortdog]

>But while BSA and the strip club down the street both have the right to decide who gets in the door etc., they don't have the right to get preferential treatment from government.

 

I disagree. When is the last time you saw a BSA troop zoned out of a location in the neighborhood? We, as society, make rules all the time giving certain groups preferential treatment based on what those groups are doing. Strip clubs get to set up shop next to the city dump. Boy Scout troops can set up shop next to the school (or the city dump if it really wants it).

[packsaddle]

So, you're saying that troops get preferential treatment compared to strip clubs? That galloping noise must be the ACLU coming to rescue those oppressed clubs. Actually, here in the South, zoning is kind of rare. Very rare, actually. I guess that's why we have so many gated communities with people from up North in them. Wouldn't want them to create an eyesore for the rest of us who have a yard full of beautiful vintage cars and pickups...

 

Prairie_Scouter, I think troops are allowed to meet in schools, just not be chartered by public schools.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Pack, oops, you're right on the public schools; I mis-spoke, er, typed.

 

You know, I may not have any vintage cars in my yard, but I've got a great supply of vintage building materials in my basement that my wife seems to think are for some sort of project. I try to explain to her that some people collect stamps; I just happen to collect 2x4s and drywall. Just doesn't get it

[packsaddle]

2x4's? Drywall? Around here we call that 'mulch'.

[schleining]

counting to ten....deep breath...exhale...

 

 

Prairie....

I am beginning to think you and I will never agree on anything...

But ok... I can live with that...

No I was not talking about physical or legal attacks... but everyone else seemed to understand the intent....moving on.

No I was not talking about Parties winning the election either. I was refering to the overwhelming majority of people in the United States that agreed on Faith based issues.. for example Gay marriage and life issues. Democrates and Republicans can agree on God. God is not Right or Left he IS.

Anyway- The ACLU does defend everyone and hides behind the Constitution when it is convienent for them. They deem God unconstitutional... I think they need to read our founding Fathers... they need to look at the documents that established this country and they will Find God had and has an important role in our Nation.

I don't know how many of you have been in the Jefferson memorial in Washington DC... it is obvious the ACLU has never been, because if they had it would shut down in a New York minute.

Jefferson was VERY outspoken about his belief in God and that a Nation with out God would fail.

 

My personal opnion is that everytime the ACLU gets involved the Nation gets weaker.

The Three Aims of Boy Scouts is Character Development...Forming Good citizens... and personal fitness (which includes spiritual, physical, and emotional fitness). I would like you all to look up those definitions and tell me that without a good moral structure and values which include reverence to a higher power we can achieve the Aims. There is a debate about the methods in another part of this forum... but God is centeral to our Nation and the ACLU would tear that from our history and make it a non factor in the life of our Republic. I for one will not sit back and let it happen.

 

I VOTE

 

Jerry