ACLU Info?

[Prairie_Scouter]

Aw, Jerry, there's probably a lot of things that we'd agree on; this just won't be one of them

 

Now, I didn't say anything about physical attacks, and legal attacks are the only thing that the ACLU can do. My point was that I don't think that the ACLU has taken on the Boy Scouts directly, that's all.

 

I don't think that ACLU attacks the concept of "God" in America. What they will do is attempt to connect seemingly inocuous acts, such as a nativity scene in a city hall, to the concept of the founding of a state religion. Personally, I think that they're somewhat over the top with that argument. On the other hand, if I'm a member of a religion that doesn't use the 10 Commandments and I'm being tried in a court room that prominently displays them, I might wonder if I'm being tried based on the concepts of a religion, rather than on the rule of law. They've probably got a point.

 

Anyway, I can't accept an argument that the ACLU is trying to remove "God" from America. I've never seen that in any of their court cases. There's a difference between acting to stop the preferential treatment of any single religion and trying to remove God as a concept from the country. I just don't see that the facts back that up.

 

You're right that the majority of people who said that they voted based on faith based issues voted against Gay Marriage and choice. But, here's my problem with legislating those views into law. Gay Marriage is opposed by many conservative religious groups and many mainstream ones as well. But not all. If you pass a law outlawing gay marriage, aren't you prohibiting some people from exercising their religious rights? If, say, the Catholics prohibit gay marriage, they can easily say that gays cannot partake of the sacrament of matrimony. Why can't that be enough? Why do they have to force their beliefs on everyone else by trying to get laws passed? Is it fair, do you think, that if you had a "Grey religion" and a "Yellow religion" that the Grey religion should be trying to pass laws that force the Yellow religion to live by the beliefs of the Greys?

 

Hey, I vote, too. I even vote for Republicans once in awhile when they're not too wacky. I kinda liked George the Father, actually, but George the Son, well, those opinions are better left unsaid

[tortdog]

>On the other hand, if I'm a member of a religion that doesn't use the 10 Commandments and I'm being tried in a court room that prominently displays them, I might wonder if I'm being tried based on the concepts of a religion, rather than on the rule of law. They've probably got a point.

 

I don't think that's a substantive reason for the ACLU argument. A person could wonder all he wants, but unless the government is doing the alleged conduct than that "wonder" is merely a theoretical argument.

 

If the judge pulls out the Bible and pronounces judgment based on Exodus 12:1, then we have an issue. But if the judges does so based on Texas Health & Safety Code Sec. 162.001, then I don't care how many bibles are stacked out in front, we know where the law came from.

 

>Anyway, I can't accept an argument that the ACLU is trying to remove "God" from America. I've never seen that in any of their court cases.

 

And honestly, I fail to understand how you don't see it.

 

>You're right that the majority of people who said that they voted based on faith based issues voted against Gay Marriage and choice. But, here's my problem with legislating those views into law. Gay Marriage is opposed by many conservative religious groups and many mainstream ones as well. But not all. If you pass a law outlawing gay marriage, aren't you prohibiting some people from exercising their religious rights? If, say, the Catholics prohibit gay marriage, they can easily say that gays cannot partake of the sacrament of matrimony. Why can't that be enough? Why do they have to force their beliefs on everyone else by trying to get laws passed? Is it fair, do you think, that if you had a "Grey religion" and a "Yellow religion" that the Grey religion should be trying to pass laws that force the Yellow religion to live by the beliefs of the Greys?

 

Let's run with this. Let's say Religion X requires human sacrifice. Are you okay with that free exercise of religion?

 

>but George the Son, well, those opinions are better left unsaid

 

Don't MESS with Texas...

 

Seriously, I had some questions with George W. Bush, but as I have watched him in these last six years I have nothing but pride. I don't agree with everything he does, but I have to admire that he is a true leader who does what HE thinks is right. In my view, that is what a President should do (as opposed to following the latest poll).

[evmori]

The ACLU is been driven by minorities (atheists & gays & others) who want their agenda pushed. The ACLU pushes their agendas by stating their civil rights are being stepped on. And what happens is the majority of the population has their civil rights stepped on. But that's OK since the ACLU is involved!

 

ACLU = Another Cash Lover's Union

 

The ACLU is neither American or civil or about liberty.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[schleining]

Thou shalt not kill....

There's one that's offensive.

Thou shalt not steal....

Again... I am shocked!

Honor your Father and Mother...

That's just plain radical... I am offended!

 

If I am in a Court room as a Defendant and I see the Ten Commandments...

I geuss I should have read them before getting into the Court room!

 

Religion and Morality go hand in hand... but you can be morale without religion. So voting for against Gay marriage is not a Catholic thing, as we saw, it is an American thing!

 

Jerry

[Hunt]

"The ACLU is been driven by minorities (atheists & gays & others) who want their agenda pushed. The ACLU pushes their agendas by stating their civil rights are being stepped on."

 

There is some truth to this, which is why ACLU took Dale's side, rather than supporting the right to free association. There's no question that many people in ACLU have a liberal viewpoint on most issues.

 

"And what happens is the majority of the population has their civil rights stepped on. But that's OK since the ACLU is involved!"

 

This, however, is baloney. The ACLU wins some and loses some, depending on how strong their legal arguments are. We have a pretty conservative Supreme Court now--after all, Dale lost his case.

 

"ACLU = Another Cash Lover's Union "

 

This is so ridiculous it makes me wonder if even you could possibly think this is a sensible insult for ACLU. You must not know many lawyers if you think the ones working for ACLU are making the big bucks. If you're going to assign some nefarious ulterior motive to anybody who disagrees with you, at least pick one that makes sense! Accuse 'em of being Commies or something.

 

I just think it's pathetic that people think we're being crushed by the horrible ACLU when we have a Republican president, Congress, and Supreme Court, and when giant corporations have more power than anybody else. I mean, really!

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Good morning, Tort,

 

>>Let's run with this. Let's say Religion X requires human sacrifice. Are you okay with that free exercise of religion?

 

Ok, I'm probably going to get myself into some sort of "debate hole" with this, but let's go ahead. I'll say no, I wouldn't be ok with that because human sacrifice is murder, which is against the law. The next step would then be for that religious group to try and get laws passed that say murder is ok, because it is in line with their religious beliefs. And, the People should say "no". Isn't that pretty much in line with what I was saying?

 

Regards George W.....

The strange thing is, I kinda like the guy. I just really, really don't like what he's doing. And I don't think he's actually doing what HE thinks is right, I think it's more like he's doing what Karl Rove and Paul Wolfowicz think is right.

 

To Schleining..

Jerry, Jerry, what are we gonna do with ya?

 

Ok, if we want to go down this line...

"Thou shalt not kill"....well, unless you have really strong religious beliefs and think that blowing up medical clinics is ok.

 

"Thou shalt not steal"....well, unless you really, really need the land to let your country grow, in which case the God-fearing USA is within its rights to exterminate native Americans and appropriate their lands.

 

"Honor your Father and Mother"....Well, unless you're in some mainstream religions, in which case we want the Mothers to stay in the background and out of the way.

 

So, you see, you can have groups that put their own "spin" on things to make what they're doing seem right. That doesn't mean it is.

 

So, voting against gay Marriage is the American thing to do? I suppose you're right; it's right up there with those one-time fine "American" institutions of slavery and racial discrimination, which, oops, share some underpinnings in that at least part of the argument in favor of those was based on your friend and mine, the Holy Bible. I hope that one day discrimination against gays will go on the same scrap heap that slavery and racial discrimination find themselves on.

 

 

[evmori]

If you think it's baloney then why can't a crche be placed on the steps of my City County building but a menorah can? Excuse me while I scrape my rights off the ground.

 

Take a look a the monstrous pile of legal fees the ACLU is collecting from the cases involving the BSA! They are making money had over fist!

 

Sure they win some & lose some. When they lose, the ACLU seems to seek out ways to make life miserable for those who beat them. Now that's civil!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[tortdog]

EV. Actually, I strongly doubt that the ACLU has loads of money. It relies on donations for its "causes". If the ACLU was loaded, this country would be REALLY screwed up. The ACLU does not make money to fight cases...that costs the ACLU money. What the ACLU gets is public attention, and that results in more donations from like-minded people.

 

>Ok, I'm probably going to get myself into some sort of "debate hole" with this, but let's go ahead.

 

I'm not trying to bait you, and I'll try to be as open and honest as I can.

 

>I'll say no, I wouldn't be ok with that because human sacrifice is murder, which is against the law.

 

I'd agree, and the Supreme Court has opined that where religious practice interferes with society's laws, then the law trumps the right of the free religion.

 

>The next step would then be for that religious group to try and get laws passed that say murder is ok, because it is in line with their religious beliefs. And, the People should say "no". Isn't that pretty much in line with what I was saying?

 

That's true (and touches on the morality argument). But that's also okay. If a society wants to legalize murder, then so be it. If a society wants to legalize slavery, then fine. The people choose their rules and their government. So why don't you accord the People of the United States (or the People of Texas) the right to pass laws that coincide with their beliefs of right and wrong? Why would you want ANY law that did not attempt to keep society on a good path?

 

If society is dominated by the people of one religion (and it's not in our country), then why shouldn't that society reflect those views if the society is governed by the people?

 

>And I don't think he's actually doing what HE thinks is right, I think it's more like he's doing what Karl Rove and Paul Wolfowicz think is right.

 

I worked for a partner who knew the Bush family very well. The President is a headstrong man who does ONLY what he thinks is right...and yes he has made mistakes. He's no one's puppet. He is very much his own man.(This message has been edited by tortdog)

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, I think the next time you see a Menorah on the steps of the City County Building (whatever that is), I think you should contact the local ACLU office and sue, I am sure Merlyn would be happy to assist you in finding the right person to contact. However, if you do not intend to contact the ACLU over this, don't talk about it

[evmori]

Ed, I think the next time you see a Menorah on the steps of the City County Building (whatever that is), I think you should contact the local ACLU office and sue, I am sure Merlyn would be happy to assist you in finding the right person to contact. However, if you do not intend to contact the ACLU over this, don't talk about it.

 

Actually, OGE, I don't care if there is a menorah on the steps of the City County Building (local government offices & courts). But since there is it seems the ACLU has no problem being selective in it's persecution. And I wouldn't contact Merlyn to find a rest room.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well Ed, it looks like you might need directions to find a rest room, since you obviously couldn't find out (or more likely, didn't bother to find out) that the ACLU has argued AGAINST menorahs, and some of the lower courts agreed, but the supreme court reversed that part of the decision in Allegheny v. ACLU (1989)

 

Yes, a court of mostly Christians decided that a Jewish religious symbol was secular. Don't ask me how - it looks possible that the supreme court will rule ten commandments OK on the grounds that they are religiously meaningless(!)

 

Currently, it's unlikely that an ACLU would take on a lawsuit to remove a menorah, because that would pretty much require the supreme court reversing a fairly recent decision.

 

But it wouldn't hurt to find out what the ACLU has actually done before criticizing it - but then this whole ignorance-laden thread wouldn't even exist.

[firstpusk]

Okay Ed. If there is a menorah out in front of city hall, call the ACLU. They might just take the case.

 

Can you give me a figure on the legal fees that the ACLU has collected from the BSA? There may be some, but I don't know of any myself. Can you site any specific cases or are you just blowing smoke?

[evmori]

I DON'T CARE IF THERE IS A MENORAH ON THE STEPS OF THE CITY COUNTY BUILDING. AND I WOULD NEVER CONTACT THE ACLU.

 

first,

Never said the BSA was paying the legal fees. All I stated was the ACLU is collecting them. If you look through the other threads regarding the San Diego case & others you will find the ACLU settled these cases for big bucks! Merlyn probably has the figures.

 

Merlyn,

Your telling me to get the facts before criticizing? How's the editing of that public school list coming?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[whitewater]

I don't know of any cases where the BSA has had to directly pay anything to the ACLU, but defending itself against the attacks has been very expensive.

 

I think what evmori is referring to are the large fees that the ACLU collects when it wins a civil rights case. Title 42 Section 1988 gives a court "discretion" to award attorney fees to the prevailing party in civil rights cases but I don't know of any cases where the court refused to award the fees (though they may be smaller than requested). That is our tax dollars.

 

Last February the City of San Diego agreed to pay $950,000 to the ACLU in the lawsuit involving the Boy Scouts. There are a lot of similar awards. A million here, a million there... pretty soon we're talking about real money.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hey Ed, I've told you before (but you never seem to learn) that my list (which has always been marked as imperfect due to the way it's generated) has served its purpose and is only needed to check up on the BSA's honesty in agreeing to end all public school charters.

My list showed the IL ACLU the size of the problem, which prompted a letter from the ACLU to the BSA, and the BSA agreed to stop issuing BSA charters to government agencies.

My list will still be of some use in seeing if the BSA actually complies.

 

You, on the other hand, accused the ACLU of being selective in its "persecution" for not going after menorahs, when a simple search would have found that the ACLU DID include a menorah in the Allegheny lawsuit, and the courts ruled against the ACLU.