A question for Fuzzy Bear

[dsteele]

Fuzzy:

 

Thanks for respecting my silence, but it's really not necessary.

 

Yes, I have had some experience with faiths/religions that let their youth have their "wild times."

 

The mennonites, amish, weslyan, etc. seem to allow youth in their teens to experiment with the world. This means that those teens (to me as an outsider at least) can do pretty much whatever they want. when the expected time period is up, they either return to the "fold" as it were or they do not.

 

I don't know what faith/religion your young man was from, but I see this as one plausible explanation for your scenario.

 

Unc.

[packsaddle]

Perhaps that is what is described as (sensu Bette Midler...hubba, hubba) 'divine madness'?

 

Fuzzy, thanks for the good words. Yes, and those insoluble situations sure make it interesting.

[Trevorum]

Pack is right about the power of labels to shape our thinking and opinions. Labels can be useful as language shorthand when we want to quickly summarize complex ideas, but they are often misused to simply categorize people into little conceptual boxes we all think we understand. Labels are one-dimensional and do not recognize the tremendous complexity of human experience.

 

---

This discussion has got me to wondering about Buddhist Scouts. While there are several traditions, Buddhism as a general rule is atheistic in that it does not recognize supernatural beings: Buddhists do not believe in God (or gods). Nonetheless, Buddhists are welcome as Scouts and Scouters. How are these facts reconciled in practice? I think that Buddhist Scouts in the UK have the option of replacing "God' with "my Dharma" in the Scout Promise, but no such option exists in the BSA. The question is, would an EBoR (or any BoR) be within its rights to reject ANY candidate who says they do not believe in God/gods?

 

 

[Hunt]

I have some thoughts on this--they really go beyond the specific case, so I'm not worried about the facts.

 

First, it seems to me that the only thing that can matter are the convictions of the individual scout, not the convictions of some other person. If a scout himself is a self-proclaimed atheist, I don't think it matters that he comes from a tradition that says he's still "saved." Otherwise, the Board could simply rely on a tradition that says everyone is "saved," no matter what they believe (and there are such tradtions).

 

But it also seems the vast array of things that a person might believe could make this very hard if you try to delve into it. As Trevorum mentioned, there are non-theistic religions, like some forms of Buddhism. What would you do if a Scout said, "I believe that there once was a God who created the universe, but he gave up his essence in doing so, and now there is no God." I suppose he could still do his duty to God in such a belief system. What if he says, "I'm going through a crisis of faith right now--some days I believe in God, and some days I just can't." I guess you could tell him to come back on one of those days he does.

My point here, if I have one, is that it's risky to delve too deeply into this topic, and that we should rely on the trustworthiness of the Scout to tell us if he meets the requirement of the Scout Law to be reverent.

[Trevorum]

Hunt, I agree with your point. However, my question was "Would a ... BoR be within its rights to reject ANY candidate who says they do not believe in God/gods?" I can certainly envision this happening in some parts of my own state.

 

[Hunt]

I guess I can imagine that, too--but would a Board ask a Scout if he believes in God or gods? I don't think they should--they might ask him how he met the requirement to be reverent. On the other hand, if a Scout announces to the Board, "I don't believe in God," I guess I do think the Board must ask additional questions to determine if the Scout in fact meets the requirements.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Unc,

It is my respect for your silence that I find necessary, especially here. Yes, what you said about the Mennonites, Amish, Wesleyan, etc, means that these young men could be correct in their religious principles and to their God and yet be outwardly opposed to the principles of the BSA. Would it not be in direct opposition to the young man's religion and to his God to make the Scout do otherwise? This would appear to make the BSA stand against God, a curious situation.

 

Bob, just because I am impatient does not make the young man wrong. It makes me less than I should be. As an adult, it is understanding that I seek. His respect will follow.

 

Trev, "Labels are one-dimensional and do not recognize the tremendous complexity of human experience." Bada Bang Bada Boom!

I assure you there will be an answer about the Buddhists.

 

Hunt, You are so right about working with a Scout on his good days but I learn the most on those other days.

 

 

FB

 

[Bob White]

I never said the young man was wrong. If he was right (that he was an atheist as he claimed) then the board was wrong to grant the advancement at that time. If the scout was wrong , by that I mean he was not sincere in his atheism but only trying to challenge the board, then the board was again wrong to grant the advancement at that time.

 

Do not misunderstand, I never said the boy was wrong, I said the boy did not meet the requirements as determined by the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bob,

I accept your opinion on this issue. It has good insight and I am sure, well within the boundaries of Scouting.

FB

 

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

Ive tried to understand this thread all week. Are you saying Fuzzy that since the scout once believed in God, it doesnt matter what he says or believes at the time of his BOR?

 

My son has a friend who was just arrested for making a very stupid choice. Now he and his family have to live with that choice the rest of his life. The scout made a clear and conscious choice to not earn the Eagle, but even after all the post, the boards position isnt clear to me at all.

 

Barry

 

[dan]

Fuzzybear

I did answer your question. I guess it was too subtle for you.

Once Saved, always Saved. Means nothing to me. I do not believe it. I believe that this scout is going to Hell unless he stops being an atheist. It sounds like this Eagle Board went looking for a reason to allow this scout to become an Eagle scout.

 

But I guess it should not surprise me with all of the posters that posted in this thread

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=91779

that said being an atheist and being a scout is all right with them.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dan,

 

If I missed your subtle statement, I apologize. I understand that you have your set of beliefs that are real and true for you. Your beliefs are profound and because they are, they are absolute. It just so happens that other people's beliefs that are in Scouting, in the world, in America, in your city and most likely in your own church are just as profound, just as absolute but very different from yours. When we attempt to resolve absolute issues in light of our own absolutes, then it is possible that we will miss the truth that another has in their world and that is my point.

 

Since you have decided on your own answer based on your own set of beliefs for this problem, then your confusion is clear and your question to me is answered.

 

Thanks for your interest.

 

FB

 

[Vicki]

Fuzzy, Trevorum - just happened in on this thread, and yes, there is an answer on the "Buddhist question":