Witchcraft in Scouting

[Eamonn]

Many years back I was a service team member at Walton Firs Camp Site, which at that time was owned and operated by the Scout Association of the UK.

The person in charge of the the camp The Camp Warden, was a small fellow, Bill Cook. Bill, was a nice man ex Royal Navy submarine signals Officer and ex-civil service.

The camp is small and used mostly by Troops for weekend camping.

We had our Troop meetings on Friday nights and would once a month leave after the Troop meeting, sometimes with a couple of Patrols and sometimes just as 8 -10 young adults. If this was the case we might make a stop on the way and not arrive till late. Once there we unloaded the vans and got down to the serious business of playing whist. The games could go on till the early hours of the morning. But we knew come 7:00 am, Bill would be there making sure we were out of our sleeping bags and telling us what needed done.

Bill over the years had suffered a lot of practical jokes at our /my hands. But he took it all in his stride. On the outside people who didn't know him might think he was harsh and very military. I knew him well and we were the closest of friends.

One Saturday at 7:00 Bill arrived I was cooking breakfast and had the tea made, he joined me in the kitchen. For some reason he never called me Eamonn unless he was talking about me to other people, he always called me by my last name. which reminded me of my School days, I think he did this because I had gone up to the camp a lot as a Scout, Bill was outstanding at pioneering and the camp had the best pioneering store /equipment of any of the National camp sites.

This Saturday he stood with mug of tea in hand and informed me that "They are saying black masses in the chapel!!"

We were proud of our little Chapel, a clearing in the fir tress, surrounded by wild rhododendron's, the local BSA Troop based at the American School in Cobham had come in and redone the fencing around the chapel and on a tree placed a very nice simple vanished wooden cross.

After breakfast a couple of us went to the chapel and the cross was hanging upside down.

Bill had said that it was and this was a sure sign that the local yobos were practicing Satanic Rites in our chapel, he had added that he was worried about the welfare of Boots the camp cat. Boots was the size of a small horse and each day laid dead rabbits and rats on Bills doorstep trophies from last nights hunt.

When we looked at the cross the brass picture hanger that had been used to fix the cross to the tree had rusted and the cross being heavier at the top had fallen, the hanger at the bottom was in good shape and was holding all the weight of the upside down cross. We used a galvanized hanger to place the cross in the correct position and that as far as I know was the last that was ever heard about Black Masses being said at Walton Firs.

Eamonn.

[Illini]

I never stated that he killed animals for his "services". That was an inference in another post.

 

Eamonn, thank you for relating the story. I am not sure the message you intended but, I will take it that if we set things straight, whatever bad happened in the past will not return and not all thing are as they appear.

 

It appears that there is a very grey area in reguards to this topic. I feel that if he is practicing the dark arts whether just ritualistic confussion or sacrificial offerings (I do not know if this part of his pratice) he has renounced God and therefore should not be part of the scouting program.

Meeting the resistance in this discussion to this topic spells it out for me the morals, the very foundation of BSA are no longer improtant what ever happened to "Duty to God"? I use this as a retorical question and thank you all for your valued input.

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry Marge, I lost track of who said what. I dont know much about the occult, although I am not sure the scout oath and law match well with satanism, but I could be wrong

[Trevorum]

In commenting on the BSA Declaration of Religious Principle, Scoutldr says, "God with a capital "G". In my opinion, that means the God of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition, aka, Allah, Jahweh, Jehovah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, etc"

 

Scoutldr, your opinion is not consistent with BSA policy. "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion" (BSA position statement, 6/2000).

 

This means that the definition of God is NOT restricted to your deity. Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, Sikhs, Bahai's, Unitarian-Universalists, Jains, Taoists, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, persons who do not have a label, and others are all welcome in BSA. The only persons who are excluded on the basis of faith system are self-proclaimed atheists.

[Illini]

I agree that many faiths of good and loving deities were left out of the comment and apologize to the many out there that I may have offended.

 

But, you're saying that worshiping Satan is acceptable in the BSA, and to say that I have a belief in the sciences, not a God, as to the explanation of our existence keeps me out?

 

Since when was Satan "The profoundly evil adversary of God and humanity, often identified with the leader of the fallen angels; the Devil." (dictionary.com)a God

 

I guess it is time for us to reconsider the type of organization many of us belong to.

 

One last comment, the BSA will not allow a homosexual who is solid in his/her faith into the organization but will allow those who worship Satan. Baden Powell I am so sorry the wonderful institution you created has come to this.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not sure anyone here condoned Satan worship as an acceptable BSA type relgion. If they did, I missed it and as I have already said, I sometimes miss things. I think what is more likely happening is there are inquieries as to how certain you are of the boys beleifs and perhaps inadequacy, and least on my part, of giving advice on a subject that really needs a professional approach. I asked about the animal killing because if that was true, you could get the civil authorites involved and perhaps they could help the boy. I can see where you are looking for help, but this may not be the best place for the depth of problem you present. Who here thinks Satan Worship is acceptable in the BSA?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OGE asks "Who here thinks Satan Worship is acceptable in the BSA?"

 

Why wouldn't it be?

 

As for animal sacrifice, Santerians practice it. Are they not allowed in the BSA now?

 

Some Jews want the temple rebuilt and animal sacrifices to resume; should such Jews be kicked out of the BSA if that occurs?

 

But by all means, keep kicking people out of the BSA for having "improper" religious views.

[Illini]

This will be my last post on the subject.

 

At no point did I inquire about animal sacrifice.

 

I originally asked is Witchcraft / worship of Satan accepted in BSA because of a situation I must deal with.

 

What I have learned is anything goes as far as religion, who cares who worships what even if it is the devil himself. I guess someone should consider designing a religious emblem for him too!

 

Would you reconsider the reacceptance of those who are homosexual if they made their beliefs a religion? I venture to say no, what a shame. This is a comparison to consider.

 

Maybe all the posts should be read and you will see what a whole has been dug here, it is not one I will jump in.

 

[ScoutNut]

IMHO you should leave the poor kid alone. You say he is a eagle scout & a wonderful young man who will turn 18 in a few months. Why are you attempting to get him tossed out of Scouting? What has this kid done to you?

 

Other, of course, than not believing in your version of religion & finding "his way back to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"?

 

You have no way to actually know what this boy is doing. You don't know him well enough to know what is really going on inside his head (except to say he is a wonderful young man who should not be in the BSA). You don't live with him (unless of course he IS your son, we can't know). You speak to him once in a while & that seems to be it. Unless you are his parent you have no idea whatever what is really going on in his life (& sometimes even parents don't have a real good grasp on what the heck is going on with their teenager or why they have suddenly turned into a wierd alien form the Twilite Zone).

 

It is entirely possible he is telling you all of this JUST to rattle your cage, so to speak. I once had a friend who had "accepted God into his life". Unfortunatly my version of God was not good enough for either him or (to hear him tell it) his God. It made him very unhappy because I was a wonderful person & a good friend, but I was evil, in league with Satan, & going directly to hell. All of this because I did not accept HIS God into my heart, & oh yes, I listened to rock music especially the Stones & (gasp) Black Sabath.

 

Well, I haven't bitten the heads off of any chickens lately or built altars in the woods. My religion is my business. This boy's religion is his, and his parents, business. I doubt he is going to summer camp in order to "bring Satan souls". My guess would be he is going because he wants to have some fun (and maybe finish up a palm?). Give him a break & leave him be.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Marge, Marge, Marge,

 

Using these comments to condemn the BSA is not sound based on your inquiry. You have posted 15 times, you may have "lurked" for some time before but for those of us that have read and responded for a few years, for those that have wrestled with these tricky issues of religion, you will see an overwhelming defense of God and the BSA. Consider using patience, instead of judgment in both situations.

 

Reflect back on what you asked for and you will notice that any outsider would need to be very careful in how they answer you. You are directly in the situation and the reader is not where you are. You presented fragmentary information. You said your knowledge is not fragmentary but your information certainly is and even if it wasnt, it should be proved by the observer first. You say that you want somebody to stand "with you" on this issue but that could only be done with very little certitude and be highly inadvisable.

 

I can not speak for others here but I would imagine each of us has walked a similar path as yours. Each one of us has probably had that certain Scout in that strange and unfamiliar situation where our knowledge of how to act was uncertain. You present a situation that cannot be answered in a Black and White way. When dealing with Scouts, you are also dealing with adults and their way of believing. That alone does not give any of us the right to be in charge of all of the answers. It will be tricky at best and you will be the one that will need to take the risk and be willing to be found totally wrong in your approach, which could very easily happen.

 

A few years ago, a young man stated that he was an atheist during his Eagle BOR. He made a point to direct his comment to me. I didn't answer him right away not because I was patient but because I knew he was somehow manipulating me and the Board with his answer. I was certain that my answer to him would be correct without any doubt. The other leaders also were absolutely sure and we all agreed. We recessed for two weeks and spoke with his religious leader and his parents. When we returned, we apologized for our lack of knowledge and he was given his Eagle. We were given credit for doing a good job from people from several counties away (most unusual). Many had heard of our "great" insight and ability at resolving the situation but that was not the case at all. I found it hard to forgive the young man because he had used the situation as a kind of a twisted joke. Finding humor in had to come first.

 

 

FB

[Eamonn]

Marge,

Why do I feel that your intent of this entire posting was to say:

"What I have learned is anything goes as far as religion, who cares who worships what even if it is the devil himself. I guess someone should consider designing a religious emblem for him too!

 

Would you reconsider the reacceptance of those who are homosexual if they made their beliefs a religion? I venture to say no, what a shame. This is a comparison to consider"

I think that there is no Scout practicing Witchcraft and you made up the entire thing.

For the record I feel sure that if you were to ask any sane person in Scouting if we condone Satanic worship, the dark arts, black magic the answer would be that we do not.

While there may be a few young people who have looked into this stuff, I have yet to meet any Scout in all the years that I have been around that takes it seriously enough to be considered a member of that religion.

I don't think any chartering organization that would allow a die hard Devil worshiper in and I know for a fact that we would never allow an organization that held these beliefs start a unit in the District in which I serve.

When I read your original posting in this thread to my 16 year old son, he was kind enough to inquire about your mental health.

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

This whole thread blew up and seems to have almost played itself out while I was with the troop on a backpacking trip. Great trip, perfect weather.

But I'll make what might be the final comment.

 

Witchcraft doesn't exist -

Magic doesn't exist -

Monsters don't exist -

At least not outside the mind of the person whose imagination has conjured these things. Many people toy around with fantasies on life's journey. None of the above precludes the simultaneous belief in a 'higher power'.

I know several nice persons who claim to be witches. I kid with them saying they don't really look all that unattractive. They threaten me with 'boils'.

We have a great time when we're together but they know I think they are delusional. They really do believe they can heal people, work spells, etc. None of it really does anything bad except waste time.

 

Many of the people here in the South have local stories about witchcraft and the so-called "Dark Arts". This sometimes has a racial overtone that truly is bad.

However, I do know of a place in the forest nearby. A series of very large stones form a ring for seating and in the center is a nicely constructed fire ring. Locals swear that satan worship takes place there. I have visited the site many times and evidence exists that they may be correct. Numerous remains of dead animals litter the area. Mostly chicken bones and parts. No one seems to know who it is that engages in these ceremonies, thought the cult seems to based out of Kentucky.

The part that's a mystery to me is the identity of a their leader whose photo is often left behind in the litter. He's older with grey hair and a satanic goatee. And the name is barely legible on the inscription on these photos. His name is...Colonel Sanders?

 

Yep, I'd rather be back on the trail right now.

[Trevorum]

ScoutNut, thanks - my thoughts exactly.

 

However, I'd like to point out that building "altars in the woods" is not necessarily a bad thng! Wiccans, who are very moral people, do this I believe in some nature reverence ceremonies.

[Illini]

Just to clarify one last time the situation is real, every conversation I have had (other than one comment from the father) on the subject has been one on one with the boy. The young man is practicing Satanism. He will be at camp. I have not witnessed animal sacrifice and did not discuss this aspect of the religion with the boy so, I cannot comment. I know all children as good and wonderful because they are children and there is hope for their soul (in my religious set of beliefs). As far as my mental health, your 16 year old (who I know nothing about), unless he has extensive knowledge in the field of psychiatry is not really qualified to make a diagnosis.

 

What happened here is, not one of your remembered your training. In situations of this magnitude and sensitivity we, as leaders cannot advise or analyze the situation with the professionalism required. Unless you are a paid professional with extensive training, and I do not know if any of you are, you are not qualified to pass judgment on the boy, the situation, or me.

 

Your best advice: This is a sensitive situation call your Council Executive and he will be able to assess the situation and resolve the situation in the best interests of the Scout, the Troop, and BSA.

 

[DugNevius]

"Unless you are a paid professional with extensive training, and I do not know if any of you are, you are not qualified to pass judgment on the boy, the situation, or me."

 

do you feel that you are passing judgement?