Discrimination Against Me.

[beasties mom]

may i be the first lady in the group i'll can bring the marshmellow Proud Eagle.

 

 

JoAnne

[busylady]

Yes, gents, it's your party . . .

 

But I thank you for letting me stand in the back (not the back of the bus, mind you, just behind the scenes) and do my thing as CC.

 

No argument from this vantage point about young ladies in troops (and I'm past being called a young lady, except as a kind jest)--having attended a women's college, I know from first-hand experience some of what we lost in the rush to "co-education".

 

So, any room left around that fire? (Pass those marshmallows, I brought some chocolate . . .)

 

[CA_Scouter]

Is the point of this discussion to make some rule that only those that agree with what we say can participate? By attempting to do so, are we not in effect, supressing the open and free discussion of all ideas? I don't think censorship is one of the Scout Laws.... nor did I see this discussed when I earned my Citizenship merit badges.

 

I think that if we only discussed things we all agreed upon, the forms might get boring and uninteresting. By permitting all opinions to be discussed, it ignites our passion for Scouting and our beliefs in its principles.

 

As long as all posters are trustworthy, friendly, kind, curteous and cheerful, I don't see any reason to suppress them.

 

 

 

[cubbingcarol]

If I bring the graham crackers can I come too? I've never chopped wood but I'd be willing to learn to keep the fire going.

 

Proud to be in the BSA, and proud of what it stands for,

Carol

[Eamonn]

Hi scoutldr,

You are of course right that just about anyone can visit or post in these forums. We do however have a number of youth members, both visiting and posting. In fact Hops Scout is a youth member and a moderator in this forum.

Terry our host tells us that Nearly a hundred thousand people a month use this web site. I don't know if anything has been done to find out if these users are parents, youth members, or people who have been around for a while.

 

Please bear with me while I play pretend.

Let's pretend for a moment that I am the parent of a little fellow that has asked to join Tiger Cubs. I do a search and end up here. I really know nothing about Scouting or the BSA. Once here I read;

"For the record, In My Opinion, BSA National is a political organization espousing the agenda of a group that may not be the majority of Scouter's"

Posted by Prairie_Scouter,Saturday, 4/9/2005: 9:44:10 AM

I as that Tiger parent might have second thoughts about allowing my son to become a member of this political organization.

By the way, it's no big deal but Eamonn has two N'S.

Prairie_Scouter

I have no idea what you are talking about when you call the BSA "This political organization"?

Scouting is not a cafeteria you can't pick and choose what policy you like and not take the ones you don't like.

I strongly suggest that you visit:

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm

and go to the Frequently Asked Questions.

If you really feel that you can't accept the answers provided ? Then you might want to rethink you membership in the BSA.

I have to admit to finding this talk about the BSA being a political organization, that favors Christen religions not only offensive but a big heap of twaddle.

Barry, the circle wouldn't be complete without you. However if you keep saying that you are aging fast, who knows one day we might start believing you.

CA_Scouter, No PLEASE NO MORE RULES!!Never in a month of Sundays would I suggest that we need more rules. I would however point out that A Scout is Loyal. I would hope that we are loyal to the BSA.

Those of us who hold leadership roles in the BSA need to remember that membership is a privilege not a right. As leaders we play a very important role in Scouting.

The BSA states on their web site:

Why is the leadership role so important to Scouting?

 

A. The responsibility for instilling Scouting values and beliefs is entrusted to adult volunteer leaders. One of the most important methods of Scouting is adult association, because association with adults of high character is critical to a boys development. Scoutings program for instilling values in young people teaches through both principles and concrete examples of adult leaders. Adult volunteer leaders not only espouse Scoutings values and beliefs, but more importantly they embody them as role models to Scouting youth. Through teaching, counseling, and role modeling, adult leaders play a critical role in transmitting Scouting values and beliefs to the boys. A boy may spend more time with his Scoutmaster, on weekend campouts and other small-group activities away from home, than he spends with his own father.

While I would hate to step on anyones first amendment rights. It seems to me that if we are going to be leaders in this organization we need to walk the walk, if we do this while using every opportunity to disagree with the rules, surely we would be guilty of hypocrisy.

Proud Eagle, beasties mom and busylady, thanks for joining our circle and please don't burn my marshmallow.

Last but not least OGE. Please don't worry about the move!! Years ago I was lucky enough to have a pair of brothers in the troop from Jamaica, it didn't matter what you asked them, the answer always seemed to be "No worries man"

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Eamonn,

Why would any parent come to a forum dedicated to opinions and discussion to find out about Scouting? A search on Boy Scouts would more likely take them to the BSA sites, where they can find all about what BSA believes in and their policies. They can either accept those or not. Coming to a discussion forum really provides nothing of value for a person looking for information about Scouting, unless they are actually looking for opinions, in which case, they are likely to see a wide variety of divergent views. An intelligent person can choose which opinions to place any weight in. If they did come here, they'd be more likely to visit the forums on Cub Scouting and the like, not opinions forums like this one.

 

Regards my opinions on BSA National, they are just that, opinions. I think that BSA's National office acts like a political action committee, working to get their views sanctioned and protected. BUT, it is just my opinion, and nothing more. I also believe that the local units are the true heart of Scouting. The program lives and dies there. I have been happy to serve as a Scout Leader for many years now; know that there is a "wall" that separates my personal views from what is presented to the Scouts. The fact that units I have served have always grown and been praised by our Council points to me doing something right. Yes, I don't agree with the gay policy, and work from within for change; on the other hand, I also think the Climb on Safely training is inadequate to provide real safety, and work from within for change in that as well. I've spent a lot more time on Climb on Safely. They are all important, but some aren't going to change in the near term, and honestly, the gay policy really has no major impact on my work, while the safety training does. I just find it a more interesting topic for discussion.

 

So, why don't I just go away? From this forum, because I didn't think it was just a place for those who already agree to come and talk about things they already agree on. From Scouting, because the program and the value to the Scouts is too important to let any single issue get in the way of that.

 

BTW, I have been through the link you provided, previously, as I've looked for various sources of information. It does a good job of describing the BSA view of things.

 

Sorry about screwing up the spelling of your name. Not intentional. And thank you for presenting your views in a civil and polite manner; I do appreciate it. Makes for a much more pleasant discussion.

[dsteele]

I appreciate civility and all points of the Scout Law in discussion. I think some threads in recent days have strayed from that.

 

I typed much more than that, but have learned the wisdom of deleting before even posting . . . and so I'll say no more on that particular thought.

 

As to who may join our "circle of marshmallows" I think anyone is welcome as long as they remember that this is a sort of Scouting archive, although unofficial, and that youth are among us. We can not lead them if we are seen to quibble, squabble and do worse things among forum members. Debate is one thing -- personal attacks are another.

 

Unc.

[NJCubScouter]

Eamonn writes:

 

At present to be a Scouter in the BSA you have to believe in God and not be an avowed homosexual. If you don't meet these requirements you can't be a Scouter and really have no business here.

 

and

 

But if you don't meet the requirements to join or remain in the BSA, please do me a big favor and leave.

 

Eamonn, I am wondering who it is you think you are asking to leave the forums. I can only think of one current poster who says he does not believe in any higher power, and that is Merlyn. Tjhammer has told us that he is a Scouter who is gay, but that he is not "avowedly" gay in "real life" (where his name is not, presumably, T.J. Hammer or anything close to it.) There has been some disagreement about whether Tj meets the membership requirements, but I think most people have been willing to accept his statement that he does.

 

So that still leaves just Merlyn. Is this whole thread about Merlyn? If so, by my rough guesstimate it would be about the 50th time Merlyn has been asked by someone to stop posting, something he seems to show no interest in doing. In fact he would probably be more likely to eventually stop posting if people stopped asking him to. Plus, if you were just talking about Merlyn, you could have saved a lot of typing.

 

Or is this about something more?

[scoutldr]

Eamonn,

 

As our esteemed colleague, Bob White is fond of saying (and I paraphrase), those who take the unsubstantiated opinions on this forum as fact without verifying them, are naive and irresponsible. As long as this forum is open to free discussion, it will be a milieu of fact, fiction, policy and BS, as all public forums are. It's up to the reader to sort out which is which. Perhaps we should outlaw OP-Ed columns in newspapers, as well, since the stupid public may get the wrong idea about the Government and our leaders. This country was founded in 1776 on the principle of Freedom of Speech. The forum owner also grants us a degree of freedom and it's up to him to change it if he sees fit.

 

And yes, I am fully aware that there are youth members around. So they are not "Scouters". They are "Scouts". So much of the discussion that goes on is not something they need to know about nor are necessarily interested in, kinda like what goes on behind the curtain in Oz. Just like I am not interested in the merits of Lego containers. If you are proposing to limit the discussions to "Scouter" issues only, let's get serious about it.

 

scoutldr(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Snake Eater]

From the back of the circle a scouter clears his throat and says, "Excuse me." Snake Eater steps into the space made for him in the circle. Lifting the pot of coffee in his hand he adds, "Anybody want a cup?"

===========

I've only been on the board a couple of weeks but, except for some posts to and from Merlyn and a comment about rednecks, the conversations that I've watched have been fairly civil. Two posters on the opposing (relative to the current BSA policy) side of the gay member issue have been patient and respectful of many people who disagree with them strongly. They are tjhammer and prarie_scouter. On the pro side of the issue it may sound harsh to say that if someone does not meet the requirements then they cannot join or should leave but sometimes the truth can be harsh.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Part of being a human and a Scouter, I have found myself sometimes angry or wrong or both. I try to use the backspace button but sometimes my fingers override my Scout Laws. It is at that point, I try to use my request for forgiveness button. With all of my failings, I will need to keep those buttons for the future closer at hand. I wish it were not so. I will try to do better.

FB

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Thanks, Snake Eater. Appreciate the positive comment.

 

Eamonn, you're right, Scouting isn't a cafeteria where you can pick and choose what policy you and don't want to follow. On the other hand, if I frequent a particular cafeteria and the only vegetable they have it beans, I might take the time to try and convince them to adjust their menu a bit; it might be in their best interests to do that, since they could then attract customers who want something besides beans.

 

Sorry, , a silly play off or your analogy, but the best I could in the short break between kid's soccer games today :-)

[OldGreyEagle]

Prairie_Scouter, I think I see your point about the cafeteria and it started me thinking. I have a staunchly vegan friend, runs a Vegan Food Store. When you read the literature on the diet and the almost resulting "lifestyle" one can get quite enthused. With all the grains, and other products its quite an interesting place. The problem is, the changes we are discussing would be like me telling my friend you have a great store here, great location and clientele and I bet business would really boom if you just sold a little beef.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Laurie]

The sad thing is that Scouters aren't always nice to one another and don't always live out the Scout Oath and Law. We sure don't have to agree on everything, but name calling and rude behavior is just not befitting of a Scout or Scouter. I'd like to pull up a log to that fire if I may.

 

As for parents coming here. Before I was a leader, I asked questions of the leaders. They didn't have answers *or* the answers were conflicting. Great people, but not able to give me the info I wanted. So I did a search on-line. I ended up here, though I think I lurked until I became a leader.

 

The thought that has gone through my mind this past week, particularly in respect to many threads here, is that sometimes we take something that is relatively simple and fun and turn it into something rather complicated.

[Torveaux]

I hope you all don't mind if I show up in my dockers around your campfire. LOL.

 

PrairieS,

 

If I add brussel sprouts and okra to the cafeteria so you will enjoy the menu more, but the smell and sight of them makes 1/2 of my customers too ill to patronize my establishment, I have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

 

(no offense to brussel sprouts and oka)