Just Vapor in the Wind

[EagleInKY]

Great post Bob. Prairie's distorted view of both US and BSA history is scary, but all too reflective of some on the left who bash anything that is considered traditional or American.

 

In PS's world, Americans value slavery, polution and wife-beating. I'm not sure what university he graduated from, but if he learned it there, his history teacher should be fired. These aren't values, these are sad memories of a past that came about due to the freedom given to a very diverse group of people. Many of whom fled persecution in their home countries. Slavery wasn't a "value". In fact, I remember a big war that ensued over it. And, guess what, the good guys won. The time of slavery makes up only about 1/3 of our history as a nation. And, as time goes on, it becomes a much smaller piece of it. The same goes for every other kind of oppression. Over time, the good guys win, and freedom comes to more people.

 

So what are our values? Freedom, liberty, pursuit of happiness... that people are endowed by their Creator with certain inaliable rights... that all men are created equal... These are values. Do we always live by them? No, unfortunately. But we can always strive to meet them. Rewriting history won't change this.

[Scoutndad]

I think that the BSA needs to address this from the training side.

 

Why try to argue that it is there in front of everyone on the form when they sign up or in the various handbooks...because it is seems apparent to me in these related threads, people are not certain what values or policies are critical to understand when joining.

 

It was suggested that we have the CM PL or whomever, give an introductory meeting and discuss this very topic. I think that is a great idea and should be mandatory at the time that scouts and parents are signing their forms. You will always have those that were "unaware" down the road, but there are too many experienced members posting replies in these threads that were not aware of the religious content when they joined.

 

I enjoy reading these "religious value" threads, but it is obvious that while we may or may not "respect" each others view on religious beliefs and sexual orientation tolerances (regardless of factual content), we (the BSA and its leaders) need to do a better job of training and educating the parents and scouts at the beginning of their experience instead of trying to repair it after the fact (and yes I was trained and continuing my training but this is/was never brought up). It is what it is...

[Trevorum]

Semper, another great though experiment. I would assume that the anti-establishment, socially marginal, political dissident you describe would have been welcome in BSA because he believed in God (!) and was heterosexual. I'm not certain about the "Duty to Country" part though...

 

Do you think he could get his dad to be a leader?

[SemperParatus]

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[Trevorum]

Since he was not released after being convicted, I assumed you meant eligible for membership while he was still free to wander around and spead his message of sedition against authority.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Well, Old Grey, I suppose if what I offered was the #2 outrageous thing ever said on this forum, what was #1? That all gays can be classified as a group to be poor role models? :-)

 

I seem to have hit a nerve. Good. Makes life more interesting.

 

My statement comes from what I suppose is personal experience. If you look at the stand on gays, for example, that has it's roots in primarily Christian religions, and my guess is that the people who originally made it an issue within BSA were from Christian religions. If you look at the vast majority of sites that support this stand, you are going to find conservative Christian websites. I've yet to see a Buddhist website promoting petitions in support of the BSA stand on gays.

 

Bob,

I never said that other religions aren't active in Scouting. What I said was I thought that BSA (and by that I meant the BSA National leadership) would be happy to make the group into something restricted to believers in Christian religions. I can't see how anyone could think that conservative Christian views are not being given prominence by BSA national. The rest of your comments are difficult to respond to because while I could locate concrete sources of information, I expect that anything I mentioned would be attacked because of its source because, unfortunately, there are very few unbiased sources of information on these kinds of subjects, as we all know. So, it would just fall into one of those categories of "oh, well, if you believe THEM...." And, even Webster's definition of "tradition" doesn't disallow the possibility of traditions changing over time.

 

EagleinKY,

I think what's distorted is your reading of my post. I never bashed BSA in total, although I will and do criticize the national leadership for being out of touch with the overall membership, although even that is a matter of opinion. Never, ever did I say that today's Americans value slavery, pollution, and wife-beating. That is not even close to what I said. I DID say that there was a time that the values of the nation found those to be acceptable behaviors, and that, as you said, is a sad memory of our great nation's history. I ALSO said that values that cause these behaviors have changed over time, and, as you said, over time, the good guys win. I hope the same will be true of BSA, although that depends on who you think the good guys are. As you said, all men are created equal; I wish that BSA believed that in the context of participation in Scouting.

 

If you and Bob think I'm wrong, I will turn the challenge back to you. Find credible sources for the Worldwide Scouting movement that says that the majority of other national Scouting programs actively block gays from participation.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Trevorum,

I believe you are factually incorrect. Jesus was never found guilty of any charges. He was sent back and forth between Pontius Pilate and Herod, neither being willing or able to actually convict him. In fact pilate found him innocent of any crime.

 

I think Jesus' life is an excellent example of what a good scout leader should be, or a good parent, a good minister or priest, a good politician, a good friend, a good anything. I find little in his life for anyone to not want to emulate.

 

So while he was an executed prisoner and an accused felon, he was never a convisted one.

So yes I think he would have made an excellent Scout leader. He certainly was experienced at being ridiculed for having followed the program he accepted the responsibility to lead.(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Trevorum]

Now that's interesting, Bob. I will certainly defer to you and Rooster and others who are more familiar with the historical texts, but I was certainly under the impression that he was eventually convicted by Pilate. I thought that, vast differences in jurispridence notwithstanding, the Romans had to follow protocol and would have been loathe to execute someone who had not been convicted, even summarily. What is the source for your statement that he was not convicted? (Not being argumentative, just curious)

[OldGreyEagle]

I seem to have hit a nerve. Good. Makes life more interesting

 

And I resent have someone yanking my chain, you can do it once, but not twice, pleasant scouting

[Bob White]

Prairie writes

"My statement comes from what I suppose is personal experience. If you look at the stand on gays, for example, that has it's roots in primarily Christian religions"

 

Is that so? Are you sure? Then how do explain the fact that homosexuality was viewed by some cultures and religions as wrong, and was punished by society long before Christianity existed.

 

"I never said that other religions aren't active in Scouting. What I said was I thought that BSA (and by that I meant the BSA National leadership) would be happy to make the group into something restricted to believers in Christian religions."

 

If that were in fact the case, then why in 95 years haven't they? They are a private organization and have the ability and authority to say whatever they want. So if that is wanted they wanted to do...then why haven't they?

 

"And, even Webster's definition of "tradition" doesn't disallow the possibility of traditions changing over time.

 

Now why would a definition include something that was not relevant to the word it was defining? Isn't the value of a dictionary definition in the fact that it tells you what a word means?

 

Now you want to make the dictionary bend to you personal opinion as well as scouting?

 

"The rest of your comments are difficult to respond to because while I could locate concrete sources of information, I expect that anything I mentioned would be attacked because of its source because, unfortunately, there are very few unbiased sources of information on these kinds of subjects, as we all know."

 

Why not share your source and let others determine it's value? If it is authentic how could anyone ignore it. I would especially be interested in your source that there were no women in scouting until fairly recently.

 

 

"you and Bob think I'm wrong, I will turn the challenge back to you. Find credible sources for the Worldwide Scouting movement that says that the majority of other national Scouting programs actively block gays from participation."

 

You have got to be joking! You make an unsupported claim, admitted afterwards that you had NO proof whatsoever for what you said, and now you want us to prove it or disprove it for you? It's your claim you do the leg work!

 

OGE is right.

 

[SemperParatus]

Jesus was indeed convicted of the crime of blasphemy by the high priest Caiaphas, a crime punishable by death under Jewish law (Matthew 26:65).(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[Eamonn]

OGE

This seems like a good time for a song!

How about this one from Don Williams?

I'm not that keen on Country and Western, but my little sister was a big Don Williams fan.

 

Artist/Band: Williams Don

Lyrics for Song: I Believe in You

Lyrics for Album: Don Williams - 20 Greatest Hits.

 

I don't believe in superstars,

Organic food and foreign cars.

I don't believe the price of gold;

The certainty of growing old.

That right is right and left is wrong,

That north and south can't get along.

That east is east and west is west.

And being first is always best.

 

But I believe in love.

I believe in babies.

I believe in Mom and Dad.

And I believe in you.

 

Well, I don't believe that heaven waits,

For only those who congregate.

I like to think of God as love:

He's down below, He's up above.

He's watching people everywhere.

He knows who does and doesn't care.

And I'm an ordinary man,

Sometimes I wonder who I am.

 

But I believe in love.

I believe in music.

I believe in magic.

And I believe in you.

 

Well, I know with all my certainty,

What's going on with you and me,

Is a good thing.

It's true, I believe in you.

 

I don't believe virginity,

Is as common as it used to be.

In working days and sleeping nights,

That black is black and white is white.

That Superman and Robin Hood,

Are still alive in Hollywood.

That gasoline's in short supply,

The rising cost of getting by.

 

But I believe in love.

I believe in old folks.

I believe in children.

I believe in you.

 

But I believe in love.

I believe in babies.

I believe in Mom and Dad.

And I believe in you.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Bob White]

Caiaphas had no authority to convict only to indict, which is why he was sent to Herod. Herod, refused to convict him and sent him Pilate, who send him back to Herod, who sent him back to Pilate.

Pilate said "I find no fault in this man" and then washed his hands sigifying that neither he nor Rome would be responsible for him.

 

Jesus was never convicted of a felony by the state or the Roman empire. He was charged of a crime by Caiaphas in what appears to be an illegal hearing since it was held at night. Jewish law required such hearings to be held in the light of day. (that last part was just a historical side note).

 

Source: The Bible

 

While I do not claim to be a biblical scholar and I am sure that different group may have differing opinions, my point was the shared qualities of Jesus and leadership in scouts or any other walk of life. Please remember this is a scouting forum and not a religious debate forum. It would be unfair to turn it into one.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[SemperParatus]

Did Robin Hood ever live in Hollywood or was Don Williams just looking for a rhyme?

[Prairie_Scouter]

OGE, when I wrote my original comment, it wasn't my intent to "pull anyone's chain". I don't post that way on purpose. My comment was merely to the point that you and Bob seemed to have gotten really riled up over it. I meant it as a somewhat lighthearted remark. I apologize if you took offense at that line of my post; it wasn't meant to do so.

 

There's a certain frustration, however, in trying to discuss issues with Bob White, who seems to relish in taking things out of context or simply misreading my statements, or extracting meanings our of my statements that aren't there. I did make a mistake in my original post in regards to women in Scouting. I meant to say that they weren't allowed to "fully participate", but left out the "fully" while typing. Right now, there is a response from him about a comment I made that the gay policy from BSA national seems to have it's roots in Christian doctine. His response talks about discrimination of gays going way back in history; I was simply talking about BSA policy; he seems to be talking about where Christian doctrine got it's underpinning on this issue. Fine, but not what I was talking about. And so on. EagleinKY accused me of describing America as a country that favors slavery, wife beating, etc, which is something I never said, and certainly not something I believe.

 

I don't mind being taken to task for statements I make. I can defend them, or admit error; all the same to me. However, being taken to task for statements I didn't make, or on tidbits of statements taken out of context, is a bit much and I think unfair. I could understand someone saying "did you mean this?", but making an assumption about a phrase in a post and then running with it just doesn't seem right.

 

And Bob, I've said previously that it's very difficult to find sources of information that aren't in some way or another biased. I started a thread looking for sources of information and there wasn't exactly a tidal wave of response; perhaps others have the same problem. So I'll throw out a couple of easy ones that I know for fact are biased in their views, but I have no real way of knowing if the information they provide is being slanted or not, since they do link to other sites. The first of these is Scouting for All, and the second is the news site for I think Mercury News, which has covered several Scouting stories in the past. I don't have the links available right now. I've searched the World Scouting site for information as well. Scouting for All quotes the World Scouting site as saying that of 152 national organizations, 2/3 either have policies prohibiting discrimination against gays, or have no policy at all about gays. I haven't been able to verify that, although every national site I've linked to so far from the World Scouting site either says nothing about gays, or specifically says that they welcome their participation; These are mostly European sites. So, there you go. You can find opposing views at Focus on the Family and Grassfire, equally slanted in their views. I give them all the same amount of credence, which isn't all that much. I've even written to Grassfire, suggesting that airing opposing views could be in their best interests from a credibility standpoint, but they have expressed no interest in doing so.