So What Would You Do?

[packsaddle]

Sounds like predestination is alive and well. My wife says that I have free will. But that I just shouldn't think I can act on it.

[DugNevius]

"Do you believe your own logic? do you believe that Homosexuality is not really all that immoral? Do you think that choices can only be free when they are unpredictable?"

 

Do i believe it? It is logic, therefore mathmatics so its not really up to belief. If you add 2+2 it will always equal 4. If God is Perfect then there is no free will. If there is free will then there is no perfect God.

 

Do i know which exists, a perfect God or free will? No. I dont possess perfect knowledge. I lean towards the Free Will paradigm.

 

Do i think homosexuality is immoral, no. I dont buy into any blanket statements aboyt any people, but race, religion, nationality or sexuality and feel they are the tools of ignorance. There may be, and are, immoral homosexuals just as there may be and are immoral heterosexual people. I also think so many people are quick to judge and dont have the right to do so. Homosexuality does not effect anyone other then the homosexuals. It is like disliking the color someone paints their bedroom.

 

Heres a little bit about faith. Faith is used to explain the unexplainable, including contradictions, but it can never be used as a premise for an argument because it is total and complete subjectivity. I can have faith that 2+2 equals 5. It can be proved mathmatically and logically that this is an impossibility but i can still believe it. However, i can not argue using false mathmatics.

 

This here is an argument concerning Homosexuals and Atheists in the BSA and for an argument to be valid its premises must also be valid. The argument of faith is as follows:

 

-homosexuality and Atheism is a sin

-sins are immoral

-Homosexuality is immoral because i believe it is.

-I believe homosexuality is wrong because my faith tells me so.

-My faith tells me so because i believe it is so.

-I believe it is so because my faith tells me so.

 

and so on...

 

One persons faith is no more valid in an argument then the faith of another that contradicts it. If person A has the faith that homosexuals are immoral it is no more valid then person B who has the faith that homosexuals are not immoral. If 1000 people agree with person A, and no one agrees with person B, it is still even.

 

Now, eliminate faith, the all to easy one word solution to questions in which the answer is difficult, and an invalid premise to an argument and then explain why homosexuality is wrong.

 

Some in this topic have tried this. With Blanket statements.

(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

[SemperParatus]

Dan,

 

How about countin' em up for me and we'll call this 'poll' a wrap!

[dan]

SemperParatus

What was the original question?

After my last attempt of math, I think I will pass. But thanks for the offer.

Who started this thread!?

Once again I remind myself not to post in the Issue and Politics section.

 

[schleining]

I'd stay-

I think the consensus is that we would all stay because the program stands alone- with or without Homosexuals, God on the other hand would be a tough one to do without. I for one would never tell God he is not welcome in Scouting.

 

I think for the most part the CO's would continue to march to the same beat as they are now. CO's that are from Churches, Patriotic Groups (American Legions etc) would maintain their stance on the subject.

 

I do not think we will ever see the day that the Hypothetical comes true, and thats not a bad thing IMO.

 

So to count it up...

We stay.

 

Jerry

[Bob White]

"If you add 2+2 it will always equal 4. If God is Perfect then there is no free will. If there is free will then there is no perfect God."

 

Sorry but that is a huge leap in logic. Where is the connection between perfection and free will?

 

The biggest problem you have is in proving that mankind does not have freewill. Then the even bigger problewm is proving that giving mankind freewill was not a part of a perfect God's plan.

 

Good luck proving either of those.

 

 

[acco40]

I should learn to never attempt to answer for others but ...

 

If one postulates that God is all knowing, He (or She if you prefer) has knowledge of what you will do. For some, they feel this is predestination, i.e. no free will. For example, using logic, if God knows what we will do, what we will do is already determined (or else how would he know) and therefore our actions have already been determined. Now some, including me, believe that God is all knowing, we (humans) have free will and that we (humans) can't begin to comprehend God in all our (lack of ) wisdom.

 

 

[Bob White]

Predestination was never mentioned. The issue was God's perfection. God's perfection refers to His state. How do you prove that giving us free-will was not the intention of a perfect God?

 

Even if He knew in advance what we would choose that does not mean he doesn't allow us to make the choice. It would still be free will.

 

If in fact He knew everything that we would choose what would be the purpose of his creation of us. I believe He is all knowing, but that doesn't mean that He knows in advance. Couldn't God's omnipotence mean that He chooses to know what we do when we do it, without choosing to know in advance? Who can say for sure...besides evidently Dug.

 

 

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Debating Free Will and Determinism is like describing the inside and the outside of a box. They are different but very much the same. It is a maddening exercise not intended on finding answers.

 

Take the argument of God's description.

What does God look like?

 

He made man in his own image so he must look like a man.

OK, so which man and what about woman? Did God mean for the man word to be a general term meaning both sexes or was it where man was made to be over woman and therefore God would have made man in his own image for woman to worship?

 

Well, not exactly.

 

But if man is made in God's image and to be in charge why isnt he smarter?

 

It is because an image is just a shadow of the real thing and that is man all over again, not very smart and kind of like God but a far distant second.

 

Yes, but Jesus was God and he came to earth and many saw him and told us all about him but nobody really described him. So, even with all of the eye witness accounts this burning question is still unanswered?

 

Yea, like Moses and the burning bush. God did not want man to look upon him because it would cause harm to man, so he came to earth in the form of a burning bush.

 

So what you are saying is that God can only be looked at from a distance and then only through an image?

 

Yes, that is right.

 

And you are saying that if man looked upon God it would hurt him?

 

Yes.

 

But if Jesus was God and he came to earth and people looked at him why didn't people get hurt?

 

It is because God can heal those that get hurt.

 

So, why can't we see God if he can fix it when we see him?

 

Well, what God did with Jesus' image was to take away the memory of what he looked like and that fixed it for everyone.

 

So, God can change what people do?

 

Yes, it is called miracles.

 

One other thing, God doesn't like images of gods and he would like nothing better than to cast down any that might compete.

 

Yes, but isn't man in the image of God?

 

Sure, and it gets him into trouble all of the time but the ideal for man is to know that there is no other God than God himself.

 

OK, but I just wanted to know what he looks like.

 

It is a problem that man has with his eyes that gets him into trouble and God knows it.

 

So, God wants me to know him through the understanding of my heart.

 

Sure.

 

[packsaddle]

Me, I was perfectly happy with the George Burns model until a boy once told me he thought God would look like a cloud. I had to retool my image a bit after that.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I had Charlton Heston in my head and it took awhile to get used to George Burns.

[evmori]

So God knows what we are going to do! We don't! Ergo free will! Not really rocket science, is it!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Zahnada]

Dug,

 

The problem with using logic to understand God is that God is not obligated to conform to our logic. Let's just take the belief that God is perfect. Meanwhile Man is not perfect. In fact, Man is so far from perfect that we cannot even begin to comprehend the state of perfection let alone the thought process of something that is perfect. It is beyond our mental capacity to interpret what God wants or does not want or what God is or isn't.

 

A brief thought experiment to help my point.

 

Try to imagine a new primary color. Just sit down and visualize a color that does not currently exist and is not the combination of existing colors. Can you do it? It's beyond our mind powers (of course, people on certain drugs say they see new colors, but I've never experienced that so I'll leave it aside). But can God conjur up a new primary color? Of course he can.

 

Logic and mathematics will also tell us that the angles in a triangle will always add up to 180 degrees. Can God create a triangle where the angles add up to 200 degrees? Would it still be a triangle in that it's three straight lines converging at three distinct points? I personally feel that God can create this triangle, but we are unable to imagine it.

 

So why should God be forced to oblige to our human logic? Since humans are flawed, our logic must also be flawed on a Devine scale.

 

I do understand the logic of the incompatibility of a perfect God and free will. It's something I've been grappling with for years of my life. If God knows what everyone will do, then our path has been laid out before we were born. Some were born to eventually be saved and some weren't. So why try? I can't make a decision that hasn't been already written down.

 

But although it's something I struggle with, it's still confined to its roots in human logic. I believe in a loving God and a fair God and a perfect God. I have to also believe that he's worked out this little problem.

 

I know this kind of answers the question and doesn't answer the question. It's just how I feel about the situation.

[Hunt]

On free will:

Both religious and non-religious trains of thought can lead some people to the philosophical conclusion that free will does not exist. Thus, if God preordains what we will do, there is no free will. Similarly, if all our actions are simply caused by prior random events in the universe, there is no free will.

 

However, virtually everybody talks, thinks, and acts as though they have free will. In fact, people who become fully convinced that they don't have free will--that they are being controlled by outside forces--usually end up under psychiatric care. Since you will never convince a healthy person that free will doesn't exist, I say, don't bother.

[acco40]

Maybe God has given man free will in much the same way as Dilbert's pointed haired boss gave him employee empowerment (i.e. you have to wear the "I'm empowered" button!).