So What Would You Do?

[Hunt]

"Show an example of something being perfect, but lacking something."

 

Easy. A perfect diamond doesn't have wheels.

 

You seem to think that a perfect God must have complete and perfect knowledge of the future. I don't agree at all. I don't think it implies any kind of lack or flaw if God chooses to makes creatures with true free will--that can make choices that even God cannot fully know in advance.

 

What you're trying to do is set up the following logical trap for believers:

1. God is perfect.

2. If God is perfect, he must have complete knowledge of the future.

3. If God has complete knowledge of the future, it's the same as predestination, because God created things as they are.

4. If the future is preknown and predestined, free will is illusory.

Q.E.D.

I tend to agree with 1, 3, and 4. However, I think you're simply mistaken in claiming that 2 flows from 1 of necessity or by definition. That's just your definition of what a "perfect" God is--it's not inherent in the word "perfect" at all. "Perfect" can be defined as "lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind." Just as "wheels" are not essential to a diamond and are not needed to make it complete, full knowledge of the future is not essential to the idea of God.

 

Besides, the Bible clearly teaches that God doesn't even know what He's going to do in the future, because he occasionally changes His mind. (If he knew he was going to change his mind, he wouldn't really be changing it, right?)

[tortdog]

I do not see the conflict of perfect knowledge versus free choice because we still need to prove to ourselves that we are worthy of the final reward. I view this life as a test. Though God knows how I will do on the test (much as a high school teacher knows how a student will do on an exam), I still have to take the test and get my grade. That way, I've done the test myself and I know that the grade I receive is fair.

 

Though God could have told us before He sent us to Earth that we would fail and not receive the greatest reward, I do not believe we would have been satisfied (picturing a bunch of God's children moaning that they didn't get such and such because "he said so"). By sending us to Earth, we prove ourselves and at judgment day we stand before a perfect and loving Heavenly Father who will ask how we have done, and we will not be able to deny our mistakes (or our good works). We then will have to acknowledge that God's judgment is just.

 

Just my view.

 

>Besides, the Bible clearly teaches that God doesn't even know what He's going to do in the future, because he occasionally changes His mind. (If he knew he was going to change his mind, he wouldn't really be changing it, right?)

 

I'd disagree with that, and would suggest that in instances where one could argue the Bible states God changed his mind (i.e., where God says he repents), it is mistranslated/misconstrued from the meaning God intended.

 

And, no, I don't believe we have a perfect translation of God's word, since I believe that even prophets of God can misinterpret God's words, and that further misinterpretation can occur when those prophets either write down God's word or tell another to write it down.

 

For example, the Gospels were written long after Christ had died, yet we have word for word accounts of Christ's words. I would not fall off my chair if Christ one day appeared and told us that the writers missed a word or two.

[DugNevius]

Hunt- by definition Perfect must include all essential to the whole. Knowledge is part of the whole being of God. If he were to lack some knowledge he would therefore be imperfect. Many have already agreed that God has perfect knoweldge. To have perfect knoweldge he must KNOW EVERYTHING, including what we will do.

 

Let me put it this way: Life to god is like some movie we have seen a million times. Lets say... Star Wars. We know all the plot twists, we know every character and what they will say and what they do. We know that Darth Vader is Luke's father. We know he will cut of Lukes hand. We know that the princess will fall in love with Han solo.

 

So, every time we watch it the same thing will happen. Never will it turn out that Luke is killed by Jabba The hut. Yoda will never turn out to be evil. Darth Vader will never say "Luke, i am your uncle." These charactors dont have any choice. Its pre written. We KNOW what they will do.

 

So, Fuzzy Bear comes to a cross roads. He can Turn Left, turn right or turn back the way he came.

 

God, having perfect knowledge, because its essential to the whole of being perfect in every sense, Knows that Fuzzy will turn left.

 

Fuzzy will not turn right. He will turn left. If he were to turn right God was wrong. But a perfect God is never wrong. So Fuzzy will turn left. He was never going to turn right or around. He was always going to turn left.

 

There was no option but for him to turn left. So, it is as if there was no right turn or possibility that he could turn around.

 

The absense of options is the absense of choice.

 

Fuzzy didnt have a choice. If God is perfect.

 

Sure it may seem as if God had changed his mind. But, we as humans can begin to understand the workings of the mind of God, may it not be that God's mind didnt change at all he simply knew what he was going to do, two actions that contradicted each other in order to spark a result?

[Hunt]

"Hunt- by definition Perfect must include all essential to the whole. Knowledge is part of the whole being of God. If he were to lack some knowledge he would therefore be imperfect. Many have already agreed that God has perfect knoweldge. To have perfect knoweldge he must KNOW EVERYTHING, including what we will do."

 

You keep saying this as if it were somehow logically required, but it just isn't. YOU think perfect knowledge requires perfect knowledge of all future events, but I say it doesn't. In fact, because I think free will is really free, perfect knowledge of all future events is impossible--a logical contradiction. Indeed, if God were "perfect" in the way you seem to mean, then God himself would have no volition in any way that makes sense. He couldn't make decisions, or have a will, or have desires, or anything else. He'd be entirely static.

 

tortdog posted:

"I do not see the conflict of perfect knowledge versus free choice because we still need to prove to ourselves that we are worthy of the final reward. I view this life as a test. Though God knows how I will do on the test (much as a high school teacher knows how a student will do on an exam), I still have to take the test and get my grade. That way, I've done the test myself and I know that the grade I receive is fair."

I think I have to go along with Dug far enough to say that if the teacher really knows exactly how you're going to do on the test--that you are in fact powerless to do anything different from what the teacher knows you will do--the test is meaningless. In the human world, people are constantly acting in ways contrary to the most reasonable predictions anybody could make--personally, I believe God makes people with the real ability to do what God wants them to do, or not to do it.

But in the final analysis, I retreat to my observation that we all act as though we have free will, so I'm not really concerned by arguments that we don't.

 

[DugNevius]

"if the teacher really knows exactly how you're going to do on the test--that you are in fact powerless to do anything different from what the teacher knows you will do--the test is meaningless."

 

This is exactly my point. So how can it be true here but not true elsewhere?

 

If God doesnt know what yu will do then God doesnt know everything. He is not all knowing, omnipotent, unlimited, all powerful or perfect. If he were, he would know what you will do. He cant have something he doesnt know, and still know everything. If he knows everything then there is nothing he doesnt know, including what each of us will do.

 

You are all expressing examples of a God that is imperfect and limited but defining him as limitless. When something is Black it is not white. When something is White it is not black. Grays do exist, but greys are neither Black or white, simply shades of gray. Something that is Perfect is not limited or flawed. Something that is flawed is not Perfect.

[tortdog]

I don't comprehend the logic of either of you two. Just because a teacher knows Sam will fail the calculus exam does not make the exam meaningless. Sam still has to get the grade and go through the test. Once Sam takes the test (and fails), he knows the judgment is fair. If Sam never takes the test, he has to rely solely on the judgment of the teacher. That's not just (though it may be right). Sam must prove himself through his own acts. The teacher's knowledge of Sam's abilities does not rob Sam of his abilities (or lack thereof).

[tortdog]

Dug. Why would you worship an imperfect being - a being that shares your flaws?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dug,

 

I accept your argument that you believe that God is not all-knowing and that man has free-will. I would not attempt to change your mind and even if I could it might interfere with your free-will and with your personal walk with God and I dont want that to happen. I doubt any of my words would be strong enough to elicit a change anyway. Only God and the receptive servant have that ability.

 

Packsaddle,

 

Judging another's faith no matter how much knowledge the person has of the other's faith, that judgment comes from within that person. It is not an act that is derived from God and it is expressly forbidden by the God that I know.

 

We agree that mankind is imperfect and cannot change that characteristic. Man and science is willing to work within the domain of imperfection to continue to be fruitful and to multiply, which is God's command to us. So, your stock portfolio will always be in jeopardy but your chances are increased for an increase in yield by having good oversight and your financial manager is obligated to tell you so.

 

As for God's command to cast three or four generations into outer darkness because of a lack of belief of one, is derived from the God of Law at a specific time in the past. A careful review of history does not reveal a changing God but mankind changing and understanding God. God's perfection allows for him to be multifaceted and complex. Mankind's imperfection allows for him to slowly learn the use of the zero and then to increasingly build a calculus that is highly sophisticated but still imperfect. So, God walks with us because mankind has failed to learn to run.

 

To be fair and balance your equation, your question should also address man's laws on other men that have lead to mass killings, purges, pogroms, genocide, etc. The simple explanation of man's characteristic to be imperfect would lead us to believe that man is revealing himself to God and slowly evolving but we suspect something else very peculiar is happening. If the Bible is God's word about himself, then recorded history is man's word about himself. Comparatively speaking, God's word has to carry the vote. (*this also fits in with the doctrine of election, I also must add that if we look at the history of prejudice (i.e., men hating other men) in America that hatred and the effects of hatred can actually be shown to carry over for three and four generations. I am supposing that is how man is similar in nature to the God of Law.

 

The things that I know about God come from the Bible. I have also walked with God long enough that my ways have come in conflict with his/her ways and I have learned and continue to learn from those incidents. I try to quote from the Bible but big words, old words, and too many words get in the way so I sometimes shorten some of the stories or examples to make a point. I try to understand doctrine(s) that are derived from an overview of scripture and the characteristics of God, according to scriptures that appear to be consistent about the subject. It may be the doctrines that are throwing you a little. It historically has thrown most of us into wild fits of fear, misunderstandings, and rage about the nature of God. The history of doctrinal evolution is interesting but sad. It has lead Church people to have a reputation that is less than acceptable to mankind and especially to God and the results have carried over for many generations. So, if doctrine is confusing, you have joined a large number that either in private or openly has pointed out the problems that exist with understanding it. Actually it is another thing that mankind so imperfectly understands about a perfect being.

 

FB

 

 

[Hunt]

DugNevious writes: "If God doesnt know what yu will do then God doesnt know everything. He is not all knowing, omnipotent, unlimited, all powerful or perfect. If he were, he would know what you will do. He cant have something he doesnt know, and still know everything. If he knows everything then there is nothing he doesnt know, including what each of us will do."

 

If free will is really free, then it is logically impossible to know for sure what a free actor will decide to do in the future. Thus, it is not an imperfection in any way to lack this knowledge. It is not a hidden fact--it is a future event that is within the control of a genuinely free person. In my view, a perfect God is omnipotent enough to create people with true free will. To me, this is exactly the same as arguing that God is imperfect because he can't make a rock too heavy for him to lift. In other words, God is so powerful that he can make creatures that are like him (in his image) in the crucial respect that they have true free will. How marvelous!

 

tortdog, let me push the analogy of the teacher and the test a bit. If the teacher has deliberately taught the student false information, then perhaps he "knows" the student will fail the test--because he created the situation that makes it impossible for the student to pass. Otherwise, the teacher doesn't really know, although he may have a pretty good idea. Personally, I find it absurd to think that God would create a person who, by his very nature, can only choose to do what is wrong, and then to punish that person for doing wrong. It would be like a potter making a pot with a hole in the bottom and then "punishing" it because it doesn't hold water. Rather, it seems to me that for all the stuff in the Bible about sin, obedience, faith, etc., to make sense, it must be that God made people with a genuine ability to choose to follow him or not to do so--that God didn't make any people who inherently are unable to choose to follow him. The alternative is really predestination, which in terms of free will and moral accountability, is no different from a godless deterministic universe in which each event is simple the result of previous events.

 

 

[tortdog]

I see why you do not believe it logical but solely within the constraint of a chronological ordering of time. But that is where you and I disagree.

 

I believe that all things are PRESENT before God: past, present and future. As an example, a man in a canyon river does not know what is around the bend - the future. A man on the cliff overlooking the canyon can look down and see that man's future in one view. The ability of the man on the cliff to see the future of the man in the canyon does not rob him of his freedom. It merely is a different viewpoint.

 

God's mercy is that he allows each of us to paddle that canyon, to see our own future as we reach it, and to prove to ourselves what we can become. God does not create us as a broken vessel. He creates us, each having different attributes, and then we use our free agency to determine who we will become.

 

My view is solely that God knows the decisions that we will make and where we will end up. In his mercy, he generally does not reveal that to us (though he has before to his prophets at times and places).

 

Unless God had this knowledge, he could not make prophecies concerning man. That is my viewpoint.

[Hunt]

"God's mercy is that he allows each of us to paddle that canyon, to see our own future as we reach it, and to prove to ourselves what we can become. God does not create us as a broken vessel. He creates us, each having different attributes, and then we use our free agency to determine who we will become."

 

I'd like to probe this--just because I think it's interesting, not because I think it has any bearing on Scouting, really. Clearly, the attributes with which we are created affect our ability to make choices--for example, I cannot choose to be an elephant, or an NBA star. But how completely do those attributes affect our ability to make choices? If you believe in predestination, or in a deterministic universe, you believe that one's choices are totally determined by inherent attributes present from your birth (and before). Personally, I can't make this idea consistent with any definition of "free will" that makes sense. If your innate makeup determines what all your choices will be, your sense of free will is entirely illusory. So, I think that there is some set of decisions that a person can make that are not predetermined in this way, but that rather are subject to a free will, just as God himself has a free will that is not pre-determined.

 

But again, I retreat to what to me is the observable fact that we MUST live as though we have free will, even if there is some philosophical reason for thinking that free will is illusory. I prefer to think that free will is not illusory, if only because it's less depressing.

 

[tortdog]

>If you believe in predestination, or in a deterministic universe, you believe that one's choices are totally determined by inherent attributes present from your birth (and before).

 

I completely disagree with any form of predestination. I think that our environment shapes who we are (partially), along with some inherent characteristics.

 

>Personally, I can't make this idea consistent with any definition of "free will" that makes sense.

 

Agreed. Where you and I part ways is the ability of a divine being to see present, past and future as though it were all present.

[Eagledad]

>>I prefer to think that free will is not illusory, if only because it's less depressing.

[DugNevius]

If god doesnt know something then he doesnt know everything.

 

Tortdog- many religions throughout history have worshiped Gods that had flaws. I have not stated that i believe that God is Imperfect or perfect, merely i understand that he is either Perfect or we have free will. Moreover, i can ask the question why would someone want to worship a god that discriminates?

[gavvin]

I realize that I am a bit late responding to the original question, but I'll do it anyway. I would remain in Scouting. I believe that we have the best youth program going and that ALL youths could prosper by it, regardless of religion (or lack thereof), sexual preference, or gender (why girls in Venture but not troops?).