So What Would You Do?

[Fuzzy Bear]

When a human KNOWS if any person will accept a chocolate ice cream, it has nothing to do with perfect knowledge. It is either a matter of wisdom (i.e., imperfect but very good knowledge), probability (i.e., based on an educated guess), skewed probability (i.e., based on insider knowledge, also known as magic), or a good guess (i.e., the use of blind luck or using or not using 50/50 probability). Knowledge of an event by a human may also affect the outcome of that event simply by observing the event.

 

If one says that God has perfect knowledge, then that knowledge will: 1. not be based on probability, imperfect knowledge, magic, or good guess and 2. will not affect the outcome of the observed event. People are incapable of replicating this kind of perfect knowledge, so it is confusing when speaking about the characteristics of God by using the characteristics of human knowledge. Perfect knowledge can only be a described phenomenon.

 

Try this story: Jonah, a man given a mission by God to tell the heathen of their demise (perfect knowledge). Jonah's intolerance leads him in the opposite direction to allow that destruction (imperfect knowledge). God creates a great storm and the boat was in peril of destruction (perfect knowledge). The sailors cast lots to find who was responsible for their peril (imperfect knowledge). Jonah confesses his dishonesty about God's mission and tells the sailors to cast him over the side (perfect knowledge). The sailors try not throwing him over the side (imperfect knowledge) but they find it a losing battle and toss him anyway (perfect knowledge). Jonah is swallowed by a whale and is carried back to shore (God acting in accordance with his perfect knowledge and Jonah's free will). Jonah's mission was to prophecy God's perfect knowledge to the heathen about their demise. Jonah hesitates but hurriedly runs through the city smelling of great putrid fish and shouting out words he hoped none would understand (free-will). He then reclines on a hill outside the city and under a large bush that grew by God's intervention to gleefully watch the destruction of the hated city. The bush suddenly dies and Jonah is angry and disturbed with God's act of disobedience of his own love for Jonah (imperfect knowledge). To add to Jonah's anger towards God, the city repents and is not destroyed (imperfect knowledge by Jonah but perfect knowledge by God). The citys inhabitants acted on their own free-will to Gods word, even when the word was given to them under duress.

 

This story represents the workings of man's free will and imperfect knowledge and how God's perfect knowledge and love transcends even the might of one very righteously holy and intolerant individual and the great wickedness of an entire city.

 

Trev,

I have attended the UU for some time and I have found that there are some people there who do cast other religions into outer darkness. It is against the stated policy and not all do it but I have witnessed openly snide remarks and laughter about some formal religions. Tolerance is a learned trait and difficult to master for those of us with imperfect knowledge.

 

FB

[DugNevius]

Humans do not possess perfect knowledge. If they did they would not be humans. Therefore humans can guess but can be wrong.

 

However many think God is perfect.

 

Fuzzy, let us look at your example of Jonah.

 

If God had perfect knoweldge he knew:

 

1)that Johan would turn and try to get out of his duty of preaching to those people

2)That the storm would come and put the boat in danger

3) That Jonah would have the crew cast him overboard

4)That the whale would swallow jonah

5)That the whale would spit him out on the shore

6)That Jonah would preach to the city

7)That Jonah would watch from the hill by the burning bush

8)That the city would repent and not be destroyed.

 

Had he not known EVERY DETAIL of the whole story he would not be one of perfect knoweldge. There would be a limit to what he knew.

 

If he had perfect knowledge, Jonah was never going to NOT try to run, nor was Jonah never going to reveal to the crew why the storm came, no was jonah never going to be swallowed by the whale, nor was jonah never going to not go to the city... and so on and so on.

 

So if Jonah was NEVER going to do everything God forsaw in the story... he didnt make any choices at all. He just thought he was.

 

Oedipus was always going to kill his father and marry his mother.

 

Predestination is the absence of free will.

 

Jonah, oedipus, Fuzzy Bear, even Bob White will always do exactly as a perfect God knows he will.

 

[evmori]

If we can not begin to understand God in human terms then how can we humans begin to judge other humans based on God and morality based on our ignorant and vastly limited knowledge of God?

 

We are not suppose to judge others. That's God's job.

 

How can we say "God thinks this _________" if we can not begin to understand anything of what God thinks?

 

We can understand God just not completely.

 

If we are ignorant in understanding God, can it not be true that nothing can be solidly defined as right or wrong?

 

I never said we are ignorant in understanding God. We (those who believe in God) should strive to try to understand Him. We just can't define Him in human terms. God isn't human. Maybe I worded my previous post incorrectly. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dug,

 

Jonah stayed true to form with his imperfect knowledge and his free will even when given every opportunity and ample evidence to do otherwise.

 

Appeasing is not the same as pleasing someone.

God knows the difference between the two.

We are not quite as bright.

 

FB

 

 

[DugNevius]

Sorry Fuzzy, But while Jonah had imperfect knowledge he was doing everything God knew he would do, and therefore not making choices at all. He was doing everything he always would. No free will epressed there.

 

Did God know he was going to try to avoid his duty? Did God know he was getting on that boat? Did God know he would be thrown over board? Did God know the whale would swallow him? Did God know he would be spit out? Did God know he would goto the city?

 

If the answer is no to any of these questions then God's knowlegde was incomplete and he was not perfect. If the answer was Yes, then God always knew what he would do and he was never going to not do it.

 

 

 

 

Ed- "We are not suppose to judge others. That's God's job."

 

A-HA! but isnt that what many are doing in these threads against athiests and homosexuals? They are JUDGING when they say its wrong, immoral and should not be allowed. How can we say that we cant judge, its up to God, but then cast judgement?

[tortdog]

Dug.

 

>If God knows what your daughter will do, eat or not eat, and she doesnt do exactly what he forsaw, was he 100% right?

 

He is 100% wrong on that one thing. But since God has perfect knowledge, He will make the right "forecast". In my view, the reason that God knows all things is becaues time for Him is not linear as it is with us. For him, all things are present, both past, present and future. Thus He is able to see what we have done before we have done it. That sight does not make my choice anymore less "free" than were He to have closed His eyes and ignored what He can see before him.

 

>Things can be less than 100% correct. However, if something is perfect, by definition, then it must always be 100% correct.

 

I disagree. Any one particular thing is either right or wrong. There is no middle ground. If something is less than 100% one way, there are more issues at hand and we are muddling the waters.

[tortdog]

>We are not suppose to judge others. That's God's job.

 

Well, I completely disagree with that.

 

Jesus Christ: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

 

I disagree that foreknowledge = predestination. Predestination robs man of his freedom (in my view). Foreordination does not. Yet, regardless of that belief, the mere knowledge by one being of what another will do does not rob that other being of its free agency. Just because a Sam CAN choose another path but Joe knows that Sam will not does not mean that Sam is not free to choose. It does explain, however, why Joe would be foolish to share this knowledge with Sam as that would infringe on Sam's rights. Hence, God may know all things but does not tell us everything.

[DugNevius]

"Thus He is able to see what we have done before we have done it. That sight does not make my choice anymore less "free" than were He to have closed His eyes and ignored what He can see before him."

 

wrong. The fact that he knows what we will do eliminates any choice. There is only one choice in life: To do exactly what God forsaw. It does not matter if linear time works for god or not. There may be three doors but you will ONLY go through the God that God knows yu will.

 

"He is 100% wrong on that one thing. But since God has perfect knowledge, He will make the right "forecast"."

 

Exactly. He will never be wrong. He will always make the perfect forcast. So he knows 100 years from now that a little girl will accept ice cream from her father who at the present is not even alive. That girl will take it. So it is impossible for her NOT to take it. She doesnt have any choice at all. Or god was wrong.

 

Because if there is NO choice, there is no free will.

 

 

We can not judge if we humans are essentailly flawed ourselves, the difference between mortal man and gods. We are imperfect, aptly prone to mistakes and confusion, and our measure of morality is constantly evolving. remeber "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?? Its pompus for one human to cast down another on morality because each of us can be judged harshly for things we have done or continue to do.

 

 

Its easy to understand why this whole thing is so difficult, Its a blatent contridiction in the faith of many but yet this logic is totally foolproof. Its one or the other. The idea that god is less then perfect opens up a whole pandoras box of doubts in faith, "if he can be wrong, then how often is he wrong and how do we know it?" but the idea that we mortals have no control over our actions is equally undesirable. However, it is impossible to have both, given the definitions of "Perfect Knoweldge" and "Free will", whether you care to see it or not.

[tortdog]

We will have to agree to disagree that knowledge of the future robs man of his choice.

[DugNevius]

2+2 will always equal 4 no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

 

Read Oedipus.

[Trevorum]

Dug,

2+2=5 for very large values of 2

[packsaddle]

And one of my personal favorites..."Rare events occur with a probability of 1."

Like that has anything to do with the topic, but thanks for getting away from chocolate ice cream, I was getting really hungry. Oops, I guess that was destiny for me then. Did I mention that I consider Darth Vader to be a Presbyterian...."....sucking noises....Luke, join with me, it is your DESTINY."

 

Oh, a horse is a horse, of course, of course...

[Rooster7]

Trevorum,

 

But I have never been made to feel like a 3rd (or 2nd) class Scouter (except perhaps by those on either end of the extremist spectrum - from Rooster on the right to Kudu on the left - who for different reasons think I and other UUs should be BSA pariahs because of our faith).

 

Pariah? I dont believe I have ever said such a thing. Regardless, I maintain that the UU faith is not a faith, but a humanistic creed. Their primary mission is not to recognize and worship God, but rather they seek to celebrate human diversity.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dug,

(*please forgive me because I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am sharing some of my thoughts on a difficult subject.)

 

I want to review a specific point about observation and perfect knowledge.

 

When man observes an event, the event itself can be changed by the act of observation. This does not happen often but it has occurred in controlled experiments other than in Quantum Mechanics.

 

When God observes an event, nothing will be changed.

 

This difference allows God the ability to observe events from any perspective past, present, and future but that observation will in no way affect the event itself.

 

Man is bound by the second law of Thermodynamics. Man can have knowledge of the past and the present but not of the future. This limits man to probabilities on what will or will not occur.

So, man's knowledge will always be imperfect but man will always have free-will. God's observation of that free-will can in no way hinder or redirect man's choices.

 

Now, in the case of Jonah, one can say that Jonah was forced to go to Nineveh because the storm and the whale were sizable obstacles. But on the other hand, Jonah willingly accepted the God's Mission, Jonah became willing honest when the storm put the boat in peril, and Jonah willing went to deliver the message after the whale put him back on the right path. Jonah was a man of integrity and was willing to be responsible even though his tolerance was flawed. The question should be asked, could Jonah have taken holiday and went to Tarsus? The answer has to be that Jonah could not possibly do anything else for several reasons. Jonah's own characteristics lead him when nothing else di and Jonah was God's chosen one, who obviously was a poor choice by all earthly standards. But as God's chosen servant, Jonah chose to do exactly what he did even though he personally would have liked to see the thousands die a horrible death.

 

We could say that God reminded Jonah on a couple of occasions about what he had promised to do, and Jonah was a man of his word, so he did it.

 

FB

 

[packsaddle]

I am curious. How can a person who has little knowledge of a particular religion, nevertheless claim to know that religion well enough to conclude that it is not a faith? Is it possible that, out of ignorance, the person could form an erroneous judgement?

 

Edited part:

Fuzzy Bear, not to take issue with your message but you stated, "When man observes an event, the event itself can be changed by the act of observation. This does not happen often but it has occurred in controlled experiments other than in Quantum Mechanics."

I add that this does happen quite often and it is a huge problem for studies of animal behavior and to a slightly lesser extent, for other biological studies.

Also you stated that man cannot know the future. I guess I'm wasting my money on that stock manager after all.

But your thoughtful message has provoked a question in my mind. I have read the Bible and a few other religious documents. I am curious to learn how it is that you and others have been able to describe the various abilities and characteristics of God. For example there's the part where He says, "...for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me." Exodus 20:5

So God is jealous, clear enough - and if a dad sins, then God will punish dad's children. (I note that I have never met anyone who said they hated God, evidently this was a big problem in Old Testament times...hating God=not smart)

But are all the things you and others ascribe to God straight from the scripture? Or are there interpretations or logical extensions as well? Back when I was struggling to be a Presbyterian I thought a long time about the 'omniscient' conundrum. And it seemed that a lot of Presbyterianism (and I merely offer this as an example) is based on logical extensions (that I evidently do not understand). Am I wrong? What am I missing in all this?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)