Prejudice will drive more away than it will draw near

[acco40]

Snake Eater, you repeatedly state the you find homosexuals behavior immoral. What I think you and many others fail to realize is that the BSA bans avowed homosexuals BUT NOT BECAUSE OF BEHAVIOR. That is my beef. A trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent (ring a bell?) homosexual who does his best to do his duty to God and country - and remains celebate but who, when asked, is truthful in stating his homosexuality, is deemed unfit to become a leader in the BSA. That is where I feel the BSA fails its members.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Bob White]

"and remains celebate but who, when asked,"

 

When asked by whom? If he or she were celibate what would someone have to ask to get that person to publicly avow their homosexuality.

 

In all my years in scoouting and as a human being I have never asked anyone in or out of scouting if they were gay? I've never even asked anyone if their were hetero..was I supposed to? Who would do such a thing?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[acco40]

That Bob, is irrelevant. The BSA policy still stands and I think it is not in the best interest of Scouting.

[Bob White]

I'm sorry Acco, you asked the question, I had no idea you were asking an irrelevant one.

 

Do you want to withdraw the irrelevant question? If so I will gladly withdraw my answer.

 

BW

 

 

[acco40]

No need to be sorry. Reread my post, I did not pose a question (see lack of a question mark). I'm not going to get in the mud and wrestle a pig.

[Zahnada]

Bob,

 

I can think of many interactions where a person can admit their sexuality. To harp on this point is to neglect the purpose of acco's post.

 

But I shall answer your question so you can move on to discuss the validity or nonvalidity of what acco said.

 

Certainly, a BSA official will (hopefully) never walk up to a scout or scouter and ask "Are you gay?" Nor will this (hopefully) ever find its way onto a form for joining.

 

Now, what can happen is honest conversation. "Do you have a girlfriend?" "Mr. ____, are you married?" etc. Certainly, the person is free to answer a simple no to either question. But what if he chooses to take an even more honest approach and explain that there is no girlfriend because he's gay? Then he has become avowed.

 

What if there's a boy who's active in his high school's Gay-Straight Alliance as a gay member? If you found this out, wouldn't you consider it being "avowed" even if you knew nothing of his actual sexual history.

 

There are many people whom I know are gay. Not because I asked and not because they felt the need to advertise it to me. Just circumstance led to the realization that this person is gay. It happens.

[Bob White]

Acco then I will ask, in your years as a scout leader, how often have you been asked if you were gay or asked if you were hetero and who asked you?

 

I will ask the same to TJhammer a semi avowed homosexual scout leader, how often have you been asked if you were gay or asked if you were heterosexual?

 

 

 

"What if there's a boy who's active in his high school's Gay-Straight Alliance as a gay member? If you found this out, wouldn't you consider it being "avowed" even if you knew nothing of his actual sexual history"

 

That's a tough one to answer Zahnada. There appears to be quite a rash of people nowdays joining organizations that have values the don't approve of.

 

Do you think a person would join a gay rights group who didn't support homosexuality?

 

Do you think a gay rights group that had a member who didn't support their values would allow that member to become their leader?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[berkshirescouter]

Our CE has told me if he finds out a Scouter has asked a boy or an adult if they are gay he will pull that Scouters membership on the spot. In our Council it is don't ask don't tell.

[DugNevius]

I dont ever recall being asked, asking or hears others ask sexual orientation ever in scouting.

 

But im still curious who here would pull their scouts from scouting if the BSA changed its policy regarding gay leaders IF no gay adults or youth in their area joined scouting.

 

Its just like the whole battle against gay marriages. Does it effect any heterosexual people if two gay men or women got married? No. It doesnt. The whole "marriage is sacred" is the only response but not all that worthy with shows like "Who wants to marry a millionaire" "The Bacholer" and other marraige based reality-comedies that have taken over our countries fascinations AND the fact that heterosexual marriages have a HUGE rate of failure, more then any other country and well above majority.

[evmori]

Bob,

Being obedient doesn't mean not questioning rules & laws. Obedient means following the rules & laws. Mindless obedience is following the rules & laws regardless of whether they are good or bad and not asking questions or working to have the laws changed.

 

And if a boy joins the Gay/Straight Alliance club at his school as a gay member, that would be avowed! Publically stating he is gay!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Hunt]

"How can you give each unit the ability to make all their own choices and still have a national program?"

 

While local units can't make ALL their own choices, local COs already have the power to make decisions on leadership and membership restrictions, and yet we still have a national program. Local COs can exclude female leaders, and they can also limit membership in the unit to members of a particular religious group. Personally, I don't think the world (or BSA) would end if it came to pass that local COs were also given the power to decide whether to allow gay leaders or members as well. I also feel that it's important to point out that it is neither disloyal nor disobedient to provide constructive criticism to an organization to which one belongs.

And a question: if BSA is convinced that it's policy is morally correct, why do they bother performing a survey to find out if Scouters agree with it or not? Also, I suspect the survey results might be different if the question asked was whether the respondent supported allowing COs to make the decision.

[Bob White]

Hunt

Your are suggesting that the BSA about allowing each unit to determine what the values of the BSA are.

 

Ed,

If you saw two people obeying the rules how would you tell who is doing it mindlessly and who isn't?

[Zahnada]

"Do you think a gay rights group that had a member who didn't support their values would allow that member to become their leader?"

 

Bob,

 

I guess that's the question that some of the posters have been asking. Is engaging in sexual, same sex acts against BSA values or is being homosexual against BSA values?

 

This distinction becomes an issue when dealing with teenage boys who question their sexuality. If they tell you (or someone else in scouting) that they are gay, even if they have done nothing morally wrong except be physically attracted to another man, then the rules say they cannot be members of scouting.

[Bob White]

hmmm Maybe they should follow the the rules and not tell me. I am certainly not going to ask them. I haven't had any one yet walk up to me me and volunteer that they are gay in or out of scouting.

 

Have you ever had a scouter walk up to you and volunteer that information? I'll be honest if someone did that to me, my first thought would be that they are too stupid to be a scout leader not their to gay to be one.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes, apparently in response to " If they tell you (or someone else in scouting) that they are gay...":

hmmm Maybe they should follow the the rules and not tell me.

 

Where is that particular rule written?