Prejudice will drive more away than it will draw near

[Hunt]

What I meant about principle is that the possibility that people will quit Scouting is not a principled reason to either keep or get rid of a policy.

Thus, if Scouting Canada did the right thing morally by changing its membership rules, it is irrelevant that it caused their numbers to drop (if it did). Similarly, if it is the right thing for BSA to keep its membership rules, it is irrelevant if it drives people away. Neither organization should change (or maintain) its principles because of the possible effect it might have on membership. They should do what is right. It is up to the decisionmakers in those organizations to decide what is right. While that decision may change over time, and may respond to the views and arguments of members, I wouldn't think much of leaders who made those decisions based on whether people would quit or not.

That being said, you'd have to blind not to recognize that there has been a significant shift in this country on whether people in general think homosexuality is wrong or not. The shift turned out not to be as great as some people had hoped, as shown by the defeat of the gay marriage legislation, but anybody who's been paying attention over the last few decades has to recognize a tremendous change. If that trend continues, organizations like BSA will either change their policies or become increasingly marginalized. But whether the trend will continue remains to be seen.

 

 

[Snake Eater]

Hunt,

 

I misunderstood your meaning - we agree completely on what is meant my principle and decisions based on them.

 

I am neither blind nor self deluded. Attitudes toward homosexuality have changed, even here in the bible belt. I think that it is because more people today know and like someone who is homosexual. My own attitudes have changed. As I alluded in an earlier post, I know several people who are homosexual and I treat them with the same respect as anyone else, I just don't think they are a good role model for my children. There are people who do other things that I consider immoral and I don't let my children hang around with them either. Scouting has the a policy that is similar to the policy of our church... anyone can come in and join us but to take a leadership position you have to meet certain standards of morality.

 

 

[tjhammer]

>Current national figures show that 40% of Tigers

>drop out and 25% of Webeols 1. Solve the retention

>problem and you solve the membership loss. It is

>unrelated to the membership restrictions.

 

BobWhite, those are interesting (and sad) statistics. I agree we have a retention problem. I wonder, do you have the statistics on whether new member recruitment is up or down, specifically? It would seem we would agree that is the salient fact to this discussion.

 

>quite offensive that you had to catergorize the states that

>voted against the gay marriage referendums and at the bottom

>of the education levels.

 

No personal offense intended. Though that's not my categorization, it was based on the pretty common survey responses that show a 2 to 1 difference in how educated people view this issue versus non-educated people. As for where the states rank in education level, I think that's also a matter of fact.

 

One result of the survey I found interesting suugests the "education level" has even more to do with opinions on homosexuality than just age/generation:College graduates age 65 and older are more than three times as likely to favor gay marriage than are seniors with less education (33% to 9%). Among those age 50-64, college grads are twice as likely to favor gay marriage as their less educated counterparts (43% to 21%). By comparison, education makes relatively little difference among those under age 30, where support for gay marriage runs highest. Since younger generations are more likely to have college degrees than older, this education gap contributes to the overall size of the generation gap on gay marriage.

 

Interesting how broad the gap is in older Americans who are eductated. At the very least, this would not support assertions that younger America is just being inculcated by "liberal education".

 

 

But you're right, I don't believe that everyone who thinks gays are immoral is just uneducated. I realize that many good and decent people believe in their hearts that they are right, and I certainly don't begrudge them their belief.

 

 

>Blacks were denied rights because of the appearance they were

>born with. Homosexuals choose to behave differently. They have

>the same rights that I do but are trying to use the government to >force others to accept their lifestyle.

 

Do you recall the day you chose to be a heterosexual? I can't remember the day I chose to be a homosexual. (I do recall many, many days that I tried to choose to be a heterosexual, though.)

 

 

>Should the BSA sacrafice/change its moral values that it believes

>is right just for the sake of numbers?

 

Of course not. (Unfortunately, that's not the opinion of the Chief Scout Executive, who as has been pointed out here many times before was quoted as saying the BSA would revisit this issue if the parents started walking away from the organization.)

 

But I would argue that the BSA set its "moral value" on this issue BECAUSE of the numbers. When the LDS church specifically threatened to pull its membership (some 40% of Scout age kids) from the BSA if it budged on the matter, BSA chose to side with them instead of many other (and smaller) churches and sponsoring orgs that wanted local options.

 

This is not a matter of numbers, and at the end of the day, the numbers that are impacted (pro and con) will not make or break our organization. I will grant you it is a matter of morality, though, and I find it extraordinarly immoral to prejudge a 15 year old gay Scout as "incapable of being the best kind of citizen", and reinforce in his mind that he is unworthy of your association.

[Bob White]

"BobWhite, those are interesting (and sad) statistics. I agree we have a retention problem. I wonder, do you have the statistics on whether new member recruitment is up or down, specifically? It would seem we would agree that is the salient fact to this discussion.

 

I agree they are sad, they reflect a problem that I believe a couple of posters have referred to on an occasion or two, regarding the need for trained leadership and the importance of delivering a scouting program and not just any program in a scout uniform.

But I digress.

 

While I do not know the national recruitment numbers (our council has had two huge increases in a row) it can be mathematically deduced that if the membership rate in cubs only declined by a few percentage points, yet we know that we now lose over 40% of Cubs through drop out, that the number of new registers must far exceed the number of drops. So again the problem isn't the flowing stream of membership into the reservoir of Cubbing, the problem is in the dam program delivery.

(and some say I have no sense of humor )

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[TheScout]

"I find it extraordinarly immoral to prejudge a 15 year old gay Scout as "incapable of being the best kind of citizen", and reinforce in his mind that he is unworthy of your association."

 

You have your moral beliefs, we don't believe them. Let us have ours, whether you like them or not, don't shove them down our throat.

 

"One result of the survey I found interesting suugests the "education level" has even more to do with opinions on homosexuality than just age/generation"

 

Statistics can be twisted whatever way you wish. I'm sure that you can find a statistic that that people who go to church (I'm saying thats a good thing)are less accepting of homosexuality than those who don't go to church. Conveniently you don't mention that it is godless among us who support your "position" as well.

 

[Snake Eater]

"I find it extraordinarly immoral to prejudge a 15 year old gay Scout as "incapable of being the best kind of citizen", and reinforce in his mind that he is unworthy of your association."

 

tjhammer,

 

Now who said that? No one here. What we have said repeatedly is that we don't want our own sons influenced by homosexuals because we consider their behavior immoral. Therefore, we support the exclusion policy of the BSA. It is as simple as that. I have compassion for homosexuals. From my perspective theirs is a difficult and sad existence.

[DugNevius]

well technically the same argument can be made against the influence of the Religious Right over children. Snakeeater, would you pull your children from the BSA if the BSA allowed homosexuality even if no homosexuals joined any troop near you in a leader capacity? Would you allow your sons to attend a school if their teacher was a homosexual?

[Bob White]

Dug,

You might have an argument if public schools taught Character developement, Citizenship, and mental, emotional, and physical Fitness.

 

But they don't...anymore.

 

Except for physical fitness public schools are no longer interested in young peoples character. In their infinite wisdom, powerful political forces have removed those elements and any reference to them.

 

I do not care if my son's scoutmaster is good at chemistry, teaching chemistry is not his job. I do not care what legal moral flaws his chemistry teacher has, he is not there to teach moral values.

 

But we choose scouting for the values it teaches, and those who disagree with the BSA program, policies or values can also not choose it. Choosing part of it is not a option. If you choose the program then you choose ALL the program, or you are being dishonest to yourself and that is the last person you should cheat.

 

BW

 

[evmori]

Dug, You might have an argument if public schools taught Character developement, Citizenship, and mental, emotional, and physical Fitness.

But they don't...anymore.

Except for physical fitness public schools are no longer interested in young peoples character. In their infinite wisdom, powerful political forces have removed those elements and any reference to them.

 

Maybe where you live, Bob, but not everywhere. And making this type of generalization is the same as saying white people can't jump. Neither are factual!

 

And just for the record, I would withdraw my membership from the BSA if they changed their policies and allowed homosexuals to be members & leaders.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[tjhammer]

>Now who said that?

 

You better become more familiar with the "policy" you support, the way it has been enforced, and the implicit impact it has on kids.

 

This policy is not just about keeping "flamboyant gays from being Scoutmasters", as I sense a few of you believe. It extends to kids, and kids have been kicked out. But it also impacts many, many more kids than just the ones that are booted.

 

I have already related the very personal and very troubling story in this forum of a young man who grew up in the organization and was honored by the organization on many levels. Secretely, he was also dealing with the fact that he was gay (a tumultious inner battle regardless). All of those around him that he admired, all of those around him that had "cared" for him, were publicly endorsing a policy that said he was the ONE kind of person that was just not worthy of their association, and this one "flaw" was enough to overcome all of the "good" for which he had been honored.

 

I have already spoken to how incredibly painful this must have been for this young man, and how it brought him to try to take his own life (a sad but common scenario).

 

See, I'm much less concerned about "injustice" or "fairness" on this issue... for me it is not about whether gay men should be Scoutmasters. For me it is about boys like this one, who are very widespread even within our organization. If you have been a Scout leader for very long, I would wager that a boy like this has already been queitly suffering in your midst, and if you doubt that, then pause for just a moment and think back over the faces that have come through your program.

 

Outwardly, you would have thought this young man, this boy that Scouting had built, was one of the most confident, capable products our organization had ever produced. He was a leader, and courageous. But in the end, his quiet suffering became too much, and he tried a very foolish thing.

 

(BTW, much like my previous personal reference, I can assure you that this boy also does not recall a specific day when he chose to be gay. No amount of "influence" will "turn a boy gay", and no amount of influence will "turn a boy straight". If you continue to believe that is a concern, tell me what it would take for me to influence you to be gay?)

[TheScout]

The situation you mention is indeed unfortunate. However, the BSA sincerely believes that homosexuality is wrong. Therefore it has made policy to conform with its morals.

 

If this it what it believes it should stick to them regardless of the consequences.

 

"In matters of style swim with the current, in matters of principle, stand like a rock." -Thomas Jefferson

[Prairie_Scouter]

A couple of thoughts...

 

First, Bob White, regards your comment about schools not teaching character, physical fitness, etc, etc. I don't know where you live, but this is absolutely not true where I live (Il). Our Schools have a program called Character Counts, physical fitness classes are required, knowledge of citizenship is required for graduation, a requirement for community service before graduation, etc.

 

Second, about these comments in regards to ""we" have our beliefs. Why can't you just leave us alone?" or words to that affect...First, BSA is always very adament about this, ie, don't force your beliefs on us, and yet, they think nothing of denigrating groups like the United Way for refusing funding simply because they are standing up for THEIR beliefs. And, who is "we"? I know many, many people in Scouting who don't agree with BSA National's policy on gays. I've seen many comments here stating that the gay policy is in keeping with the religious beliefs of the members commenting. BSA is not supposed to be a religious organization, is it? Why are particular denominations, then, allowed to let their beliefs take precendence over others? Not all churches who sponsor Scout units agree with this policy. We have a debate almost every year with our sponsoring church over whether they will recharter with us, because they do not agree with BSA's policy on gays. However, they believe, as many of us do, that the local units do such good work that they will try to look past what they see as the errant policies of the national organization, and hopefully work from within to enact change.

 

I won't get into a debate about statistics; too easy to slant however you want. I will say, tho, that our Council, in 2004, releases the results of the latest BSA survey on policy, and it said that something like 65% of Scouters agree with the BSA National stand on gays. A high number, to be sure, but not exactly overwhelming. In addition, I was told by someone in the Council (although I can't substantiate it) that if you look at the demographic breakdown of those results, older Scouters agreed with BSA policy to a very high degree, but by the time you got to younger parents, the agreement was substantially under 50%. This is something to be concerned about, if true, whether you agree with the policy or not.

[Bob White]

"they think nothing of denigrating groups like the United Way for refusing funding simply because they are standing up for THEIR beliefs."

 

I do not know who "They" are in yor mind but in nearly 30years as an adult leader and a distcict and council committee mememeber and in by dealings with representatives of the national office I have never heard a BSA professional or representative say a bad word about the UW.

 

First anyone who knows how the UW works understands that every decision is a local one, and just because your UW didn't support the program in the way you would have liked doesn't mean others don't.

Second, things change, money you didn't get this time you might get on appeal or next year from a different committee make up, so you never burn your bridges.

 

Now, have uninformed volunteers said it? Sure, but untrained leaders say alot of things they shouldn't.

 

We too have Character Counts in a few of our grade schools. Funny they won't charter scouting but they will pay for a program that is based on scouting. In fact I know an area coordinator for CC and she was hired because she was a scouter and so she "already knew the program" as the company said when they hired her. But very few scools

have CC.

 

"I've seen many comments here stating that the gay policy is in keeping with the religious beliefs of the members commenting."

 

You will see a lot of things on this forum that isn't true. But you cannot hold things against the BSa that the BSA did'nt say or do. If you have a problem with what a poster said then take it up with the poster but don't think that what they say is what the BSA said.

 

"However, they believe, as many of us do, that the local units do such good work that they will try to look past what they see as the errant policies of the national organization, and hopefully work from within to enact change."

 

That's a good way to approach it. Follow the rules until the rules change. Accept the rules until the rules change. Speak positively of the organization you belong to if you choose to belong to that organization. Do your job well enough to establish you credibility in the movement so that your ideas and recommendations have more weight than a discontented politically motivated protester would have.

 

A Scout is Loyal and Obedient.

 

BW

 

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

You're right, Bob White. You probably won't see an "official" representative of BSA say something publicly against UW; they've gotten too politically savvy for that. I've seen many petitions passed around at Roundtables trying to get UW to change their policies in favor of BSA, however.

 

I didn't say that the BSA said their gay policy is based on religious beliefs; I said that the members commenting here said that. BSA policy seems to be based on some interpretation of "morally straight", which in itself would seem to be open to all sorts of interpretation.

 

>>Follow the rules until the rules change. Accept the rules until the rules change. Speak >>positively of the organization you belong to if you choose to belong to that organization.

 

I always comment positively on the local units; that's where the true nature of Scouting resides, in my mind, not at the National office. If the local units devised overall policy, at least for themselves, and relegated the National office to logistical support, I think we'd all be a lot better off. I work within the system, hoping for change. And, when the opportunity arises, I remind my own boys that although we're Scouts, we need to remember that not everything BSA says it true, and not all of their policies are correct. Learn their concepts on outdoorsmanship; that's where their expertise is, but they don't know anymore about moral or social issues than anyone else, and what the National office says is primarily their opinion, and nothing more.

 

>>A Scout is Loyal and Obedient.

 

But not mindless.

[Bob White]

Not sure what your unit teaches but in scouting we teach that being obedient isn't mindless it's part of a citizens resonsibility to his comunity and is also part of being courteous. Are the scouts in the unit you serve expected to follow the rules of the troop and charter organization, or would that be consider mindless?

 

If you agree that the BSA representives don't say those things in public then why did you suggest that they did?

 

In they say it in private then how do you know they say it at all?

 

Since when is passing a petition to demonstrate the support of scouting to the United Way equivalent to denigrating them?

 

Your arguments are not consistent or substantiated by your own comments.

 

No one argues that the unit level is where the program takes place. But you seem to think that you could survive if national did not exist. And you could not.

 

How can you give each unit the ability to make all their own choices and still have a national program? How could resources be developed if everyone made up their own program as things went along? Can you imagine what would happen to college basketball if every team could make its own rules? There are thousands of scout units, without a central program and suuport structure the units would cease to exist.

 

Which brings us back to the membership numbers. The problem is not recruitement the problem, as you poiited out, is that scouting takes place at the unit level, and if the unit program isn't the scouting program then kids quit.

 

More trained leaders who understand the program and focus on the unit rather than on politics will be what solves the BSA membership problem.