Prejudice will drive more away than it will draw near

[tjhammer]

SnakeEater - the author of that article http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/zeiger/040812 is trying to tie Scouts Canada's great decline in membership to their accepting gays is drawing his on conclusions based on no real fact, actually (and has been

[Bob White]

"given the fact that a plurality of young parents with kids just entering Scouting age oppose the BSA's prejudicial policies?"

 

Data please.

 

 

 

[evmori]

The BSA needs to stick to it's guns. They have survived declines in membership before with out compromising their moral position. I wouldn't expect them to start now.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[tjhammer]

Data? Well, I imagine we could find "stats" to say just about anything, huh?

 

But you would have to be either very out of touch or very obtuse to not realize the attitudes toward homosexuality are different between generations, and there is a definite trend.

 

If you want some stats, a quick Google search gave me this (though frankly I have no opinion of the reality of this study, I would say it's not at all unexpected): Researchers at George Mason University, Rutgers University, and DePaul University have completed a study entitled The Civic and Political Health of the Nation: A Generational Portrait. Sixty percent of "DotNet" generation [15 to 25 year olds) agree with the statement "Homosexuality should be accepted," compared to GenX (54% accepting homosexuality), Baby Boomers (50%), and Matures (39%).

 

 

The original post responded to an unfounded claim that Scouts Canada membership was tanking because they allowed gays. If that were true, would anyone care to similarly hypothesize why Cub Scout membership here in the USA dropped more than 10% since 2000, when BSA decided so publically to not allow gays?

 

[Bob White]

You said that "given the fact that a plurality of young parents with kids just entering Scouting age oppose the BSA's prejudicial policies?"

 

Then you say that not only do you not have any facts but that "I imagine we could find "stats" to say just about anything"

 

I imagine we could.

 

The BSA has made it clear that they accept the fact that not everyone will meet the membership qualifications. If that does not bother the BSA then why let it bother you?

 

BW

 

 

 

 

[tjhammer]

Bob, "obtuse" was one of the options, and your response seems to reflect which camp you choose to join.

 

I gave you "facts"... 60% of those under 25... 54% of the "GenX" generation.... by just about any definition or interpretation, that's "a plurality of young parents with kids just entering Scouting age oppose the BSA's prejudicial policies".

 

>If that does not bother the BSA then why let it bother you

 

Because I am the BSA, every bit as much as you (and apparently more so than the top executives on the payroll). And I'm not in favor of this prejudice, nor in seeing my organization shrink into irrelevancy because if it.

 

Back to the question at hand, if one hypothesis says Scouts Canada is shrinking because it dropped its prejudice against gays, what would the hypothesis be for Cub Scouting shrinking 10% in this country since BSA affirmed its prejudice against gays?

 

[Snake Eater]

tjhammer,

 

I'm really not up for becoming an amatuer statistician and proving to the group that Canada Scouting declined because of their policy change. I have my opinions that I'll share with a few supporting facts that I can gather.

 

I live in the South. I know the people that are involved in boy scouting in my region. I am all but certain that most would drop out of scouting if the policy changed. I say this because many that I know do not buy Levi Straus products or shop at Home Depot because of their policy toward BSA's stand. I know that most COs here are churches and that many if not most would drop their charter if the policy was changed. I know this because the COs do not charter or support girl scouting because of GSA's policies. These are all facts to me, please don't insist on documentation or a notarized affidavit.

 

There is an alternative conclusion to the statistics that you provide on the differences of opinion between generations... People generally become more conservative as they age. I had a much more tolerant attitude toward all types of depravity when I was young and foolish and childless. Maturity and concern for my children has taken my opinions in another direction.

 

Why is cub scouting in decline? If it is, my anecdotal evidence from the past three years is competition from sports. There are many more opportunities to participate in sports throughout the year and at an earlier age than were available when I was a boy. Also, Dads are generally more interested in sports than scouting skills so they tend to guide their boys in that direction. Just my opinion. :-)

 

"There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli

 

[dsteele]

TJ:

 

I don't think you should have posted this:

 

"Because I am the BSA, every bit as much as you (and apparently more so than the top executives on the payroll). And I'm not in favor of this prejudice, nor in seeing my organization shrink into irrelevancy because if it. "

 

YOU are the BSA? I'm glad to know that. I frequently see the BSA referred to in the third person on these boards, so I'm glad to know they were actually talking about you. If you can't detect the sarcasm in my tone, please study literature a bit more than you already have.

 

You have made it known in past posts that you are gay and that you are active (or have been) in the Boy Scouts of America. Yet you stay "in the closet" outside of the internet. Until you have the guts to come out in public, please don't cloud the ethernet.

 

One either meets the membership standards of the Boy Scouts of America or one does not.

 

If this is your attempt to change the current membership standards of the BSA, I think it is a poor attempt.

 

Unc.

[tjhammer]

Unc, come on, you're better than that.

 

(BTW, I do meet the membership requirements.)

[DugNevius]

If the BSA were to accept homosexuals mass amounts of rednecks would leave scouting.

 

If the BSA maintains its ban on homosexuality groups like the ACLU and buisinesses like Prudential financial and homedepot continue to not support the BSA.

 

Cant please everyone.

 

Personally, if homophobes fled the BSA it wouldnt bother me all that much.

[dsteele]

TJ:

 

Actually, you're mostly right. I am better than my previous post. I came back to edit it and tone it down. Along the way, however, I re-read your posts and got angry all over again.

 

Please accept my apology for the previous post I submited.

 

However, I also ready your BTW -- By what definition do you meet the membership requirements of the BSA? Are you not a homosexual?

 

Unc.

[Snake Eater]

DugNevius: "If the BSA were to accept homosexuals mass amounts of rednecks would leave scouting."

 

It didn't take long for the discussion to degenerate to name-calling, the last resort of those with weak minds and weaker arguments.

 

I have an ignore user button and I'm not afraid to use it. See ya. Not! :-P

 

 

[frank10]

Snake Eater,

In my family we have take Redneck as a term of endearment.

 

In the words of the great Charlie Daniels "What this world needs is a few more Rednecks!"

[Bob White]

TJ has expressed his homosexuality on this forum in the past, however he is not an avowed homosexual, meaning that he does not publicly affirm it, which makes him an eligible member of the BSA.

 

But in this case he is loose with his statistics admitting that you can make figures say anything. A good example is the survey he offers us, asking a person "homosexuality should be accepted" could be interpreted in a variety of ways. Heck I accept it. I realize it exists and has existed for centuries. I know several gay people, I think most people do. I am not frightened of them, I don't dislike them. Would I want a avowed homosexual as a scout leader. No, but then I would want an avowed womanizer, and avowed speeder, and avowed non-voter. I'm picky about who acts as a role model in my son's life. So is the BSA.

 

Would the the same response would be obtained by asking, "Do you think homosexuals are appropriate as a leader of your son's scout unit." I bet not.

 

But as tjhammer said "We can find stats to say just about anything"

 

That still does not change the fact that the BSA has never said that just anybody can be a scout leader.

 

 

[Snake Eater]

I'm with you Wingnut. I take the term in the manner given.

 

It's late, go to bed you old redneck. ;-)