Den Chief system broken?

[Twocubdad]

On the thread about recruitment, ASM514 posted a note about how his troop is trying to upgrade their den chiefd and better use them to recruit Webelos into their troop. Along the lines of Bob White's thread on the Commissioner Service, I'd like to start a sparate thread on Den Chiefs. ASM maybe you can expand you post here, to.

 

IMHO, a good den chief is the best recruitment tool a troop can have. It is extremely intimidating for an 11-year-old boy to show up for a troop meeting with a room full of 16- and 17-year olds. I can't think of any greater retention tool that for the new Scout to know one of those older guys and trust him.

 

Unfortunately, in our area at least, the system of assigning den chiefs seems to be broken. I have repeatedly asked for den chiefs for our pack and have never been assigned the first one. In my time with the pack, the only den chief we have ever had are the Scout-aged sons of our den leaders. To my knowledge, none of them have been trained.

 

Den chief is probably the toughest leadership position in Scouts. It requires attending a second night of meetings every week, and a separate, day-long training session. Not to mention dealing with Cubs can be difficult. On the other end, you're not doing things you enjoy, you're not with your friends, and because your service is away from you troop, you're not immediately recognized for the work you do.

 

Right now, being a den chief is like joining the army. You have to put your life on hold for a period of time, the pay is lousy and there is always someone yelling at you. The reward are long-term -- a sense of service and duty and the friends you make along the way. That's a tough sell for a 15-year-old. (Okay, that's a bad stereotype of army life, but I'm making a point.)

 

There has got to be a better system of rewarding and encouraging den chiefs. Frankly, I don't know what the answer is, but that's my view from the Cub side. I'm interested in hearing more about ASM's den chief patrol. Maybe some the other on the Scout side have some thoughts.

 

[Eagledad]

Make it JLT! I was one of those SMs who asked scouts to be Den Chiefs because I know how well it helped the Den leaders. But, what I learned was the Patrol leaders who had Den Chief experience where much farther ahead in leadership skills. They were comfortable controlling the group. They knew how to handle disapline better and they had confidence in their leadership. As a JLT Director, I can tell you that no matter what skills the scout has, if he has confidence, he is already three quarters way to good leadership.

 

We started making Den chief the first offical JLT experience for our scouts. We give them about two hours instruction then sent them off. We let packs know we were lookiing for dens, but that's never really been a problem because packs remember us. I was going to add this to the JLT thread, but since it came up. I'll start it here. I am so convienced by the Den Chief experience that I am working to add it as a Council JLT guideline. Many districts do Den Chief training and my hope is that more will make it a higher priority if they see it as part of their leadership development program.

 

Good suject twocubdad

 

Barry

[Bob White]

twocubdad

What do you think happens more often...a cub leader contacts a scoutmaster and asks for a den chief, and then the sm asks if anyone is interested. OR A scoutmaster evaluates scouts as they grow and identifies those he/she thinks would be good Den Chiefs, prepares them for the job and then offers their services to local packs?

 

Which process do you see being used the most frequently and which do you think would be most effective?

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sctmom]

As a den leader I asked for a den chief a couple of years ago and was laughed at by a ASM. No way were any of the Boy Scouts wanting to be den chiefs.

 

My 11 year old is an "unofficial" den chief now with the den I have. Those 3rd graders look up to him. Wow, he's in 6th grade! He isn't much bigger physically but they know he is older and more mature. He enjoys it because they do look up to him. He has always enjoyed helping the younger scouts and is pretty good at it.

 

I think the den chief system benefits the Cubs and the Den Chief. The cubs are going to listen to someone closer to their age. It gets them used to going to another youth for help. I've seen that going to another youth instead of to an adult is a very hard transition for boys. It goes against everything they have been taught. This is a great way to bridge that gap.

 

 

[mk9750]

For those in Cub Packs looking for Den Chiefs, please contact me! We almost might be willing to pay air flight costs to and from your area!

 

Seriously, we have identified, as best we can, what the need for Den Chiefs for the 4 area packs we draw from. We determine what boys might be qualified and interested, and approach them asking them to consider. Our Council does a Den Chief training, but for some odd reason, it is in Late November, which is too late for this year, and too early for next year. Se we do our own training. Our Scoutmaster never really appreciated the Cub program, so he leaves that training effort to two of us who had a blast as Den Leaders in Cubs. Once trained, we try to contact pack leaders to make these eager leaders available.

 

On another thread a long time ago, I spent a long post complaining about how difficult this process is for us. Pack leadership changes, leaders either don't understand the benefit of a Den Chief, or distrust our motives. We try SO HARD to provide this service to the packs we serve. I admit, we do it mostly for our own benefit (leadership development first, recruitment second). But if we didn't see it as a benefit to the Pack, we wouldn't bother. But we get almost no one to take us up on the offer. When they do, it is often too late into the year for them to be much more help than setting up and tearing down after meetings. Our boys get frustrated preparing for the position, just to sit idly by with no den, or being a slave. I complained that at least in our Troop, we definately go beyond half way trying to make this happen, but we get NO help from the packs. This is still true. I'd love to find the magic pill to make this work, but it just doesn't in our area. We are going to try one different idea next year: We are going to try to arrange for a match at the end of the Cub program year in April - May - June, so that everyone is set to go in September. Short of that working, we are clueless (and I can prove it!!!) as to how to work this. As I am fond of saying, Den Chief appears to be a great idea that doesn't work.

 

Mark

[sctmom]

I can see that many Cub Scout leaders would not know what to do with a den chief. Especially the ones who don't or can't trust that this young boy can lead anything on his own. I'm not sure how to overcome that as I'm one of the adults who lets kids do things and I get on to the adults who but in.

 

Should have seen the look on the parents faces when I said the Bear Den WILL have a cookout this spring, the Bears will coook and the adults WILL eat what is cooked! LOL

 

I digress, sorry. Most den leaders will need a lot of guidance on how to use a den chief -- he can teach those Bears how to tie knots, he can lead games (oh, how I wish someone would do this for me, I'm horrible at the games), he can teach flag ceremonies. This is part of den leader training that is non-existent.

 

[Twocubdad]

Bob I only know what I have observed within my pack and affilliated troops and that is we have a difficult time getting boys to be den chiefs.

 

I can tell you that for the system to work, you need both things to happen. And obviously, the most important element is the selection of qualified, motivated Scouts to take the job. I don't want a den chief who is there only because it was the only leadership position open or because his SM is making him do it.

 

I can tell you from working day camp that age and maturity are huge factors in whether or not a Boy Scout is an asset or liability to a den leader. Our day camp gets a lot of 11 and 12 year old Scouts as camp volunteers because either their younger brother or parents are atttending camp, or because they really enjoyed Cub camp and want to keep going. Most of these kids are a net drain on the camp staff. On the other hand, the 14 and 15 year old boys who help are a real blessing to the camp staff. They are old and mature enough to take responsibility for a job and get it done. Of course, as you know, it is suggested that den chiefs be at least two years out of Webelos for this reason.

[hops_scout]

I have been an "unofficial" denchief for a WEBLOS den for two years now. I enjoy doing it because it has gotten me into a lot more. In April, I will be starting to help another group who will become WEBLOS in May. I like WEBLOS because they can do camping without their parents, though they seem to be required by our pack. I also have been "assigned" or indirectly volunteered to make the pack's website. This, in turn, has gotten me to begin designing the troop site, too.

[ASM514]

Twocubdad, what we have in mind is just this. You have to think about scouting as evolution. Fresh in, old out. Sorry to say, but they grow up and move to Venturing or to the fumes. That being said if you think about it, in every Boy Scout troop there are patrols that are by all practicle thinking, the same except for names. Have you noticed how every young scout works his tail off to get to be First Class with the requirements so he may have a chance to be "Called out" for OA? Why? Because it is really Special!! And OA IS Special. Our thoughts were to bring Den Cheif's to that level, and perhaps even more. If it catches on in the district, or even other areas of the nation in other councils, who knows? You bring your best Scouts together, train them and give them those special perks. What they give willingly is service and training to Webelos. We think that the natural leaders in every troop will thrive on this program. And to make this program fly outside the troop is for this Den Cheif patrol also be the foremost Honor Guard for the Council at flag ceremonies. Full class A, (or nowadays Field Uniform) Baret and Den Cheif Braids. They will be very proud. The most important thing is that all the members of this Den Cheif patrol will be there because they want to be there, for as long as they want.

 

 

[shemgren]

hops_scout:

The WEBELOS scouts are required to have their parent with by Youth Protection rules and your pack is following the rules.

 

After two years of service, you should put in for the Den Chief Service Award.

 

Den Chiefs are the best thing that can happen to a Cub Scout Den! They benefit by seeing what is there is after Cub Scouts and the Den Chief wins by the experience.

 

One the best jobs I had as a Scout. I served for two years for the Den Mother I had while a Wolf and Bear Scout.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

The problems with the Den Chief program fall on both Pack & Troop. If the Pack leaders (including CM) have not been trained then they probably have not even heard of a Den Chief. Those that have heard of them usually do not really know what they should be used for or how to work with them. You have only a very small % of Pack people who really know what a Den Chief can and should do. That is why a lot of Packs never even consider Den Chiefs or, if they do have them, use them as gofers or treat them as just a larger member of their den.

 

It seems that a lot of Troops out there don't have a clear concept of the Den Chief position either. Hey, if they hadn't a clue when they were in the Pack they sure wouldn't have one when they move up to a Troop! Also you can't force boys to become Den Chiefs. As someone mentioned, it's a lot of work! Especially for boys entering High School. If they are not encouraged by their Troop and family they will either not volunteer at all or will drop out pretty quickly.

 

Our SM asks at one of the first meetings of the year (if he remembers) if anyone is interested. If no one responds then thats the last it's mentioned. My son had to go to him and ask if he could take the training. He didn't object, but he didn't offer to have the Troop pay for it either. After that the Troop seemed to forget all about the fact they had a Den Chief. Periodicly, at uniform inspections, my son would get asked why he was wearing a "Trained" strip!

 

IMHO councils need to make a bigger deal about Den Chiefs in all levels of training. Get the word out that the position exists. Get the Pack and Troop leaders trained in the use of Den Chiefs. Then maybe we will see the program start to do what it was ment to!

 

My son loves working with his Bears. He has been helping with them since they were Tigers and is looking forward to the time when they join his Troop.

[hops_scout]

Thanks for letting me know that. Like my mom says, "You learn something new everyday.:)" I dont think she knew that because when I was a WEBLOS scout, we wenton one campout a year as a den and didnt have all the parents with us. I like the idea of a Den Chief Patrol. I also like the idea of wearing a beret, though that would be in another topic.

[Bren909]

Uh, Shemgren, the Den Chief Service Award only requires ONE year of service (in addition to other requirements), not two.

 

Brenda

[mk9750]

I just had a conversation about this last night with a parent of a Webelo visiting our Troop. Seems the Webelo Den Leader turned us down on our offer to provide a Den Chief based on the behavior and attitude of "the vast majority" of the Den Chiefs at Cub Scout day camp the previous summer. He was a Den Leader at summer camp, and spent far more time correcting the Boy Scouts than he did the Cub Scouts.

 

When I helped out with day camp, I remember the same thing. Could it be that bad experiences like this are tainting a good idea?

 

Mark

[SR540Beaver]

MK,

 

I posted here earlier and won't repeat myself except to say that our chief is practically non-existent and just a big kid. I have a feeling (based solely on this one experience) that some troops either provide the only kid(s) who will volunteer to take the job or take a problem kid and hope that giving him some responsibility will help him mature. When you have a room full of screaming Cubs bouncing off the wall, you already have all you can handle. The last thing you need is an additional "kid" twice the Cub's size to deal with too. My hope would be that an SM would pick some of the more mature (regardless of age) scouts to serve as chiefs and ASK them to do the job. They can be a very effective tool for retention or......for dropping out.