ACLU strategy will backfire

[fgoodwin]

Prairie_Scouter writes:For what it's worth, I don't believe that there's anything inherently "unScoutlike" in either a belief in Atheism or a gay lifestyle. There should be room for all in Scouting, and I think there would be if it weren't for a few people at the top of BSA who are more interested in political agenda than BSA itself.

Is it "unScoutlike" to recite the Scout Oath ("duty to God") if you don't believe in it? Is it "unScoutlike" to refuse the say the Oath? Learning the Oath is a joining requirement -- or would you suggest (as the GSUSA has done) that "God" be made optional?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Prairie_scouter writes:

The ACLU strategy, as someone else mentioned, could end up having some unanticipated, and very bad, consequences. Carried to it's logical end, the ACLU will force BSA to become a private religious organization, and that is exactly NOT what I think most people in Scouting would want.

 

Do you realize that the BSA has said in court that it's a private, religious organization?

 

The ACLU is only holding the BSA to its claim.

 

And I've stated before I'm advocating for the rights of atheists, and that means that public schools can't sponsor Packs or Troops or Crews or Ships as long as National insists on a membership policy that excludes atheists. Public schools can't discriminate against atheists.

[acco40]

OGE, just to get this a little "off-topic" your comment about football players with MS and blind wrestlers, etc. I think a school MAY discriminate, to an extent, based on a physical disability. For instance, a kid on the high school football team MAY be the best QB (best arm, feet, decisions, etc.) but because of a past history of having his clock cleaned (i.e. concussions) he may be banned from playing in future games.

 

By the way, I attended a Pinewood Derby as an FOS presenter/unit commissioner last weekend and talked with another guest - the elementary school principal. His school (oops, the school with which he serves as principal) is NOT the CO but about 98% of the Cub Scouts attend that school. He allows Cub Scout recruitment (and he alone, he doesn't consult the teachers) in the classroom if done "right" - i.e. brief and informative. We even hold the Scout Night at the school. The relationship is very good between the school and the unit.

[Prairie_Scouter]

fgoodwin...

You make good points. I think that my answer to your very valid comments is that I'd like BSA to recognize that a belief in God isn't a pre-requisite to being a good citizen. I think that that's just incorrect, and I believe that in the history of Scouting, Baden-Powell thought the same thing, but lost that battle when BSA was being founded. That doesn't mean that they will change, but that's my hope.

 

Merlyn...

Yeah, I've seen that BSA said that. To me, it just shows how far they are willing to remove themselves from the original precepts of Scouting to meet their political ends. Comments like that just help paint themselves into a corner.

 

My grand hope in all this, a pipedream most likely, is that BSA's leadership can eventually be changed to a group that is willing to look to the future, and recognize that just because something was said 100 years ago doesn't make it correct. Just as it was wrong to discriminate against women in Scouting, I hope that Scouting will eventually see that any form of discrimination is wrong. Yes, that would require some changes, and there are those who don't want that, and want to keep Scouting as a private party for those with conservative religious beliefs. I'd rather not have that. I spend a good deal of time telling my 2 Scout sons that while lots and lots of what Scouting does is good, their discrimination policies are just wrong. On balance, I think that Scouting benefits youth otherwise I wouldn't be putting the energy into trying to make it better (well, at least what I see as better :-))

 

OGE...

Regards your stats on non-Western religions, I think you're right on the numbers, but I think that the philosophy that's encouraged within Scouting is decidedly conservative Christian, which has its roots in Western religious philosophy. At least, I think so.

 

People are so polarized by these issues. Maybe it's because the leadership is from Texas or something. Like our present administration, perhaps they see everything in terms of black and white. :-)

[scoutingagain]

PrairieScouter,

 

The BSA doesn't say that those who don't believe in God can't be good citizens. I believe the wording is more like to be the "best" kind of citizen requires a belief in God and doing one's best is fully consistent with the scout oath. I think you will see a change on the issue of gay leadership long before there is a change, if ever, on the issue of religion.

 

SA

 

 

[Trevorum]

Prairie, hey now, don't go blaming the great state of Texas! I hear tell that HQ came here just because they got a good deal on some land. I think that these slow-to-change policies mostly come from elsewhere in the country.

 

And SA, I agree with your prediction, but only because the BSA already broadly accepts any definition of "God", leaving this up to the individuial Scout and his family. ("BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion"). Much to Rooster's chagrin, even "tree-worship" is acceptable, as is Buddhism which does not involve deities at all.

 

As I've said before, I think self-proclaimed atheists are intellectually lazy. It's easy to say what you don't believe in but much harder to contemplate the vastness of existence and formulate what you do believe in.