Re thinking the 1st Amendment

[evmori]

NJ,

This continous witch hunt the ACLU is on has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment. The ACLU is trying to find any way it can to harm the BSA.

 

How is this lawsuit in line with the religious freedom we are guaranteed in the 1st Amendment?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[wyomingi]

Ed,

 

The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of religion, not government support of religion. Where in the constitution does it say that the government can give money to a private religious organization?

 

[evmori]

wyomingi,

It doesn't say that anywhere. And how is chartering a BSA unit giving money to a religious organization?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[wyomingi]

1) Charter Orginizations provide money. It may be minimal, such as the charter cost, but they do provide some monetary support.

 

2) The BSA is a religious organization. The courts have said so and the BSA has said they are ecumenical.

 

Chartering a BSA unit is giving money to a religious organization. It is also an endorsement of religion and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

[fgoodwin]

It was my understanding that the gov't routinely gives money to private religious organizations in the form of research grants to both public & private universities. I was not aware that the First Amendment prohibited such grants.

[Zahnada]

I think we all have to come to grips with the fact that times are changing. It appears the ACLU is on a decent winning streak and I believe they will continue to win these battles over the relationship between public entities and the Boy Scouts. Do we want to waste money battling these decisions in court? Do we want to waste time complaining about how the ACLU is out to get us? Do we want media coverage of scouts to center around court rooms instead of service projects?

 

So instead of fighting the losing battle, lets find a battle we can win. Start by delivering the best program you can. Make it a fun learning experience in a young mans life. Then, if theres a dearth of CO, find some more. There are plenty of churches, synagogs, or other private organizations that will sponsor a troop.

 

I think the best fight we can give is to remain positive and continue to do what we do best.

[evmori]

I don't feel we are fighting a losing battle. And by giving in, the ACLU is defining the 1st Amendment to fit their interests, not the interest of the general public. The ACLU has had a bone to pick with the BSA since they lost the Dale case. And it seems they will stop at nothing to destroy the BSA.

 

wyomingi,

The Charter Organization actually supplies support for the unit. I don't think there is anything in writing that states this support must be monetary. That is at the discretion of the Charter Organization. My unit is chartered by the United Methodist Church and we receive no monetary support from them. They support us by supplying us with a meeting place & a place to store our gear.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[wyomingi]

The ACLU doesnt define the 1st Amendment, the courts interpret it. When the ACLU can see a clear violation of the law, such as public schools sponsoring private religious organizations, they try to end the violation.

[Trevorum]

Ed, I disagree. The ACLU is not "trying to find any way it can to harm the BSA". Rather, from where I sit, the ACLU is simply making sure that the BSA obeys the laws of the land and plays by the same set of rules as other private, discriminatory organizations. The BSA has defined itself as a religious organization and has itself decided to discriminate against those who are biologically different from the majority and against those do not believe in a god/goddess. If BSA is determined to maintain those membership requirements, then it must be prepared to accept the legal consequences.

 

[evmori]

So a public school is violating the 1st Amendment by chartering a BSA unit? In what way is that a violation of the 1st Amendment? And how is this different from a public school chartering a Girl Scout unit? They don't let boys join Girl Scouts! Or is that OK because the Girl Scouts abandoned their moral & allow homosexuals?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[berkshirescouter]

Here is a link to an interesting artical.

 

http://jewishworldreview.com/0305/charen031105.php3

[NJCubScouter]

Ed, for about the, oh I don't know, fifth or sixth thousandth time, asks:

 

So a public school is violating the 1st Amendment by chartering a BSA unit? In what way is that a violation of the 1st Amendment?

 

OK, so the "thousandth" part may be an exaggeration. But Ed, I have answered this exact same question for you in the past. You just don't like the answer so you pretend it doesn't exist. I guess you'll just keep asking it in every thread on this subject, but I don't have to keep answering it.

 

And how is this different from a public school chartering a Girl Scout unit?

 

The question is based on a false premise; Girl Scouts has no "charter partners" or whatever the BSA-PC term is for them these days. GS units have "sponsors" but the "sponsor" does not own the unit. The "charter partner" of a BSA unit DOES own the unit. The BSA, by its own declaration, discriminates on the basis of religion, specifically it does not admit people who proclaim a non-belief in a higher power. A public school, by owning a unit that was required by BSA-national to practice religious discrimination, would therefore be practicing religious discrimination itself. I don't see how you could possibly interpret either the "establishment clause" of the First Amendment or the "equal protection clause" of the Fourteenth Amendment to permit that. Even the BSA seems to have acknowledged this obvious fact. Why can't you?

 

(Gee, I guess I answered the question again, after all...)

[evmori]

NJ,

It's a stretch to say that ownership of a BSA unit equals condoning discrimination. It is not different than "sponsoring" a GSUSA unit since they discriminate based on gender! And it's a stretch to say chartering a BSA unit is establishing a religion! What religion is established?

 

One of the purposes of the 1st Amendment is to keep the government out of religion, not religion out of government.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[fgoodwin]

NJ, I have a theoretical question for you (theoretical insofar as I cannot imagine a scenario in which ACLU would ever stop its attacks on BSA):

 

Assuming BSA moves all its charters out of public schools, military bases, and every other gov't agency, would that satisfy ACLU?

 

Do you honestly believe ACLU will call off its attack dogs after BSA caves on these demands?

 

You and I both know the answer -- ACLU will continue to attack BSA until BSA changes its membership policies.

 

And that tells me its not about the First Amendment -- its about ACLU forcing its will upon the BSA.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Fred, how long would it have taken you (and the rest of the BSA) to drop charters from public schools WITHOUT the ACLU threatening legal action?

 

And by the way the BSA immediately agreed to remove these charters, it sounds like they agreed with the ACLU that they wouldn't survive a legal challenge. In other words, they're illegal.

 

You apparently don't care if public schools break the law and violate the religious rights of atheists, as you discount the ACLU's basis for challenging these charters.

 

Face it, when the BSA said years ago that they could discriminate on the basis of religion because they are a private, religious organization, THEY started down the road to losing all government charters.