Court backs atheist mother in Scout case

[Vicki]

Just a "for what it's worth" observation - my boys go to a Lutheran school and belong to a pack/troop chartered to a Lutheran church. Pack/troop representatives are only allowed to make presentations during School Night for Scouting. A poster is put up at the Scout bulletin board and, if you're interested in Scouting, you show up. No coercion, no recruiting and definitely not during school hours.

 

Vicki

[acco40]

But Vicki, that begs the simple question - How do the kids and their families know when it is "School night for Scouting?" Again, the real question to me is should the school (principal, teachers, etc.) be permitted to make judgement calls on who should be able to speak to their students? I say a qualified yes.

 

Oops - missed the poster on the bulletin board part. It's been along day!(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Vicki]

Acco, I agree with you. My whole point in posting my observation was that even in the parochial school my boys attend Scouts (or any other group) are not allowed to recruit during school hours. They have no restraints regarding the propriety of a Creator-based organization recruiting, in fact quite the opposite. Public schools would, to my mind, need to exercise even more discretion.

 

Vicki

[EagleInKY]

Around here, when schools have prevented sending home flyers, hosting round-ups and in-school promotions, they have essentially killed the cub scout program there. (Which is exactly what Moilen and peole of his ilk want to do).

 

Our school handles it pretty well. During some of their "free time", boys in certain grades (I think usually 1st-3rd) are invited to come hear about Cub Scouting. It's strictly optional. They talk to them about 10 minutes and send a flier home. That's it. No coersion, no forced assemblies.

[Trevorum]

EagleInKY, I don't think Merlyn wants to "kill the cub scout program" anywhere. He's been pretty straightforward about his objectives. My understanding is that he wants either (1) governmental bodies to stop subsidizing a self admitted religious organization, or (2) the BSA to stop discriminating membership on the basis of religion or lack thereof.

 

My understanding is that Merlyn would be satisfied with either of these outcomes, regardless of whether BSA membership changes up or down.

[wyomingi]

The Department of Education has proposed a new rule (CFR108.6 c) that states:

 

Recruitment. Any group officially affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America or any other youth group listed in title 36 of the United States Code (as a patriotic society) must be allowed access to students, and student information, for recruitment purposes on terms that are no less favorable than the most favorable terms provided to one or more outside youth or community groups.

 

When this rule becomes effective schools will either have to ban all youth group recruitment or allow scouts. I predict new law suits.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would much rather see the school day used to assist students in focusing on the subject matter that they are assigned to learn. The schools have an important curriculum that should be safeguarded and carefully structured with few interruptions.

 

If we taught leaders how to run a good program and leaders and Scouts how to recruit, then there would be a constant flow of kids into the program throughout the year. If we ran good Pack events and involved the CO, then we would bring in more leaders and other Scouts. If we ran good District events and brought some of the program to the community, then people would know more about Scouting and would want to join. If we opened Packs in every Church in every town and city, then we would find our population. If each Scout was proud of being a Cub, then they would invite their friends to join. Cub Scouting is a great program and can compete and beat any other just based on the variety alone. Quality program is our greatest asset. We need to first do that and then share it with others. If we do, then the numbers will be there.

 

FB

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[t487scouter]

FB, the majority of new boy scouts are cubs that have crossed over. Possibly all of you more experienced SM's and ASM's can back me up that you get very few boy scouts that have not been involved in cub scouts. In a school of 300 boys you may get 15 new sign-ups a year for cub scouts in a typical recruitment. To equal 300 school boys you would have to visit an awful lot of churches. Most of the church based packs in my area are very small, the school based packs are much larger. There is no better place to recruit school aged boys than at school. It really does not matter how good your program is if people don't know about it. A lot of boys who are not involved with scouts see it as geeky. A lot of parents who are not involved in scouts either see it as geeky, a paramilitary organization or a group of prejudice organization. The best way to make them understand is to explain it to them, it is hard to do that in a flier. Recently I had a recruitment at the school which I took a patrol box, a canoe, set up some tents and answered questions. This was held outside at the middle school which is where the kids eat lunch (the community won't pass a bond here so they don't have a cafeteria.) Lucky for me the principle at the school is an Eagle and he was more than happy to help me out. Not only did the boys check it out but so did the teachers and everyone else.

[Hunt]

The school district where I live recently banned almost all fliers (or "backpack mail") from outside organizations, strictly because they wanted to exclude flyers from an explicitly evangelistic religious group. (They allowed outside sports leagues to continue to send flyers, which has complicated the situation.) This has really hurt Cub Scout recruiting--as well as Girl Scouts, ballet schools, camps, etc. Scouts have generally been allowed to recruit at "Back to School" nights run by PTAs (along with other community groups. At these events, groups set up tables and parents and kids are free to visit those they wish to--no captive audience.

[Torveaux]

Appeals court decisions are not final, so this is still pending.

 

The real problem is that for discrimination to exist, other organizations with similar goals would have to be excluded. Thus, the district allows Cubs to recruit, but not Atheist Campers of America.

 

It would be likely for the Oregon Supreme Court to either reverse the decision completely or simply narrow the decision to apply to active listening (ie: an auditorium) versus passive listening as this case suggests.

 

I think parents like this are unreasonable in the extreme. If an LDS organization (we're Catholic) sent recruiters to my kids' school, I would have no problem explaining to my kids the difference and why they would not be eligible to join. Sometimes kids need to have an opportunity to see their faith (or non-belief) in action. To obstruct the opportunity for others to hear the message from the group is simply petty and teaches the child to be a 'victim'.

[Fuzzy Bear]

One more time: Good program is the draw. Fliers might attract a few but what gets them and keeps them is good program.

 

Our Troop was one of the two top units in the District. Our yearly recruitment push consisted of telling the Scouts, "if you like what you are doing and you are proud of it, then tell others and invite them". They did and it worked. We had a boy run, year-round program that had great support from parents and committee members. I spent most of my time each Scout meeting every week of the year orienting new Scouts and parents.

 

Our CO was a Church and we showed up on Scout Sunday. When asked if anyone had been involved in the Scouting program over half of the congregation stood up. Many were on our Committee or parents of Scouts.

 

Dinking around sending out fliers at schools is a waist of time. Training Scouts and Scouters and insuring quality program is a much better way to advertise. Drawing pretty pictures and making promises are miles away from delivering the goods and the boys know it.

 

IMHO,

FB