Co-ed OA?

[AZScouter]

Recently I was involved in a conversation about females being allowed in the Order of the Arrow.

 

Of course, women can be nominated as adults into the OA. That is wonderful, but what about girls.

 

Venturing is the fastest growing division of Scouting. Venturers, male and female, can staff JLT, Summer Camp, Cub Camp, etc. They can attend Philmont and other High Adventure camps. They have many opportunities, but it would seem they are not honorable enough to be members of Scouting Honor Society - the OA.

 

The obvious answer is that they have to be a First Class Scout in order to be considered. Well, an adult doesn't have to meet this requirement, so perhaps a Venturer could have that replaced with the Outdoor Bronze Award (much tougher than earning First Class).

 

I'd like to simply see co-ed Scouting like the rest of the civilized world, but that is unlikely. What we have here is an exclusatory policy. In many Lodges we struggle to maintain enough OA members to keep the Lodge going, yet we exclude a huge part of the "Scouting Family" because of gender. What do you think?

[acco40]

Personally, I don't think females should be allowed into the OA because they often talk to much and repeat themselves. Sorry, I could not resist.

 

Seriously, the Boy Scouts has traditionally been an all male organization - slowly but surely allowing more female participation. Females were allowed to hold pack leadership positions in the '70s. Female scoutmasters were allowed in the '80s. One of the methods was changed from "adult male association" to just plain "adult association." I have no problem with it. But the OA is a Boy Scout (not Venture) organization.

 

I think the real debate should be "should the Boy Scouts become co-ed?" If so, let female youth join the OA. If not, keep things the way it is. Because the OA is a Boy Scout organization, I would not want to see female adult members unless (until?) Boy Scouts allows female youth.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[OldGreyEagle]

Until rather recently I wanted Venturers (read girls) to join the OA. Then I looked at the current OA membership in the District. The average age of dues paying members is 14, the youngest a female venturere could join the OA would be 14, and thats if they could earn a Bronze in less than 12 months, a fairly significant task. That means the girls would be most likely 15-16 before they could be ordeal candidates, and then take the ordeal with mostly 12-13 year old boys. I am not sure this is a situaiton the would work well. What appeals to the younger boys may not strike a resonant tone with the girls and the opposite is quite true. Why not keep the Boy in Boy scouts, girls out of the OA and start an Venture Honor Group? I am not sure about your area, but the Venture Program struggles to establish its own identity and having Ventures in the OA only blurs the line more. Of course dual registered boys can be members, in their troop.

[nldscout]

I have to agree with OGE on this one. If the young ladies in Venturing want an honor society like OA, Draft a plan and send it thru your CE to national.

 

Didn't they try something called Corp of Discovery?

[Proud Eagle]

Let us start by taking a look at the purpose of the OA.

 

"Purpose of the Order

 

To recognize those campers-Scouts and Scouters-who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and by such recognition cause other campers to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition.

 

To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit.

 

To promote Scout camping, which reaches it greatest effectiveness as a part of the unit's camping program, both year-round and in the summer camp, as directed by the camping committee of the council.

 

To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others."

 

Order of the Arrow Handbook, 2004 edition

 

I will break this into four parts to make it a bit easier to analyze.

 

"To recognize those campers-Scouts and Scouters-who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and by such recognition cause other campers to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition."

 

The first issue we come across is weather or not Venturers are Scouts and Scouters. Putting that aside for the moment, we come to the fact that they must exemplify the Scout Oath and Law. Venturers do not take the Scout Oath, nor do they strive to live up to the 12 points of the Law. The ideals of Venturing are expressed in the Venturing Oath and Code. These are not the same as the Scout Oath and Law, just as the Cub Scout Promise and the Law of the Pack are not the same.

 

"To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit."

 

On this count Venturers would seem fully qualified, at least at first glance. However if we look at the methods of each program, we see that Boy Scouting has Outdoor Program, while Venturing's nearest equivalents are High Adventure and Group Activities. So, yes, on this section I will say the Venturers could fit.

 

"To promote Scout camping, which reaches it greatest effectiveness as a part of the unit's camping program, both year-round and in the summer camp, as directed by the camping committee of the council."

 

The first issue is "Scout camping". Do Venturers do any "Scout camping"? Does Venturing seek to put on the same type of Outdoor Program as Boy Scouting? I don't think so. The issue of summer camp is also quite important. OA started as a summer camp program. For Boy Scouting summer camp has always been one of the highlight activities. Yet for Venturing, it seems to me that in some ways the High Adventure method takes the place of summer camp. Consider also that this year the new camp standards indicate that Boy Scout units and Venturing units should not be attending the same camp at the same time. Could this be because someone thinks that to some extent the Venturing and Boy Scouting programs are not fully compatible?

 

"To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others."

 

While I would certainly hope that Venturers are helpful, you will not find the word helpful (or a synonym for it) any place in the Venturing Oath or Code.

 

 

Now there are some other points I would like to make, but they are primarily rooted in the ceremonies. Therefore I will save them for a day when a similar discussion pops up in the safeguarded section. I think that the arguments I have made will help demonstrate why the Order does not hold elections in Venturing units.

 

Consideration should also be made of the logistical, youth protection, and other such issues involved with allowing Venturers into OA. Clearly the BSA does not think that a BSA resident camp is capable of fulfilling the needs of both Boy Scouts and Venturers at the same time. If the staff of a summer camp is not considered to be up to that task, then I see no reason to think that the leadership of an OA lodge would be.

 

Venturing does need to establish more firmly what its identity is. The fact that Venurers want to take part in Boy Scout programs and yet are nearly offended if you suggest they are Scouts indicates just how large the need for Venturing to establish its identity is. I do not think creating a "OA for Venturing" type honor society would be a good idea. I have just demonstrated why OA is not really compatible with Venturing. Venturing is a program with many different varied focuses. Some crews are somewhat eclectic, others very specialized. If Venturing is to have an honor society it must meet the needs of all Venturers and Venturing units. I personally think that the Venturing Officer Association would be a better starting point for helping to establish the identity of the Venturing program.

 

Now as to the larger issue of co-ed Scouting, that is an entirely separate discussion.

 

[AZScouter]

Proud Eagle - Thank you, you brought up many points I had not considered. This whole issue came about when the leadership of our section allowed girls (not members of the OA or even Venturers) to attend our conclave. You can imagine the problems. Additionally, we have many female members of the OA in our section, some of whom are very young (early 20's). Combine these things and you can understand why it came up.

 

I agree, the issue of co-ed scouting is a whole other can of worms, but they are very closely related.

[nldscout]

I think its fair to say that who ever allowed non-memebers of the OA to attend your conclave.

[nldscout]

I think its fair to say that who ever allowed non-memebers of the OA to attend your conclave screwed up big time. Wheather they are female or male they had no bussiness there.

[Eamonn]

If and when the the BSA will go co-ed? I really don't know.

It does seem that for some reason we are very protective about our programs and who does what. The National Jamboree is a Boy Scout Jamboree. The OA is a Boy Scout program.

The debate as to the merits of keeping Cub Scouting and Boy Scouts programs for boys has been going on for a very long time.

Some of our chartering organizations do not want things to change. A lot of our old timer leaders would sooner eat their campaign hats than even hear about females joining troops.

Reading OGE's posting I have to admit that I was a little bit taken back when I visited the OA web site the other day and seen that some of the Regional Chiefs were only 18. As far as I can remember the youngest Lodge Chief we have ever had in our Lodge is 17.

Eamonn.

 

[Backpacker]

As a Venture asst. advisor and a scoutmaster I find this issue an interesting dilema. Since the OA has allowed female boy scout leaders into the OA the doors have been opened and there is no turning back. I disagree very strongly with Proud Eagles analogy as to whether or not a venture crew meets the scout ideals, as far as my crew is concerned they do in every way. I do not agree personally with whomever decided to let female leaders to be nominated into the OA but that decision has been made and now it is time to make things equitable, if you allow female leaders you must allow female venturers as well. While the OA was founded as a honor camping society for boy scouts I really don't se much of that anymore with the lodges I have been affiliated with

[nldscout]

Backpacker,

The point that OA and National has made is the the OA is a Boy Scout Program, not for Cub leaders and not for Venturers.

[Backpacker]

Nld,

 

I don't think your statement is entirely accurate, with the allowance of inducting female scouters the whole dynamic of the OA has been changed whether that was the intent or not. In my council lodge more women are taking adult leadership roles in the lodge, including two Venture female leaders. I agree with you though that the OA should be a boy scout group but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

 

I have watched our lodge lose both boys and adults because of these changes, when asked why they left most of them said it just doesn't seem the same anymore. I have to say I also agree, the OA is just not the same anymore.

[AZScouter]

Backpacker,

 

I could not agree more that the OA is not the same anymore, but I hardly think that is because a few women have been admitted. The BSA as a whole has changed and continues to change. I don't think we can blame that on women either. Twenty plus years ago when I was a Scout women were Den Mothers or members of the committee and only went camping on the annual family camp. At that time the OA was a secret society and none of our rituals were divulged to non-members. All this has changed, and I think few would argue that they've changed for the better.

 

Other changes are not so good. Twenty years ago very few 11 or 12 year-olds were elected into the order and it was rare to see Chapter or Lodge officers who were less than 16. Now 11 or 12 is the norm and we've had Lodge Chiefs as young as 13. Talk about advisor's pulling their hair out(or what's left of it)!

 

So many things compete for these older kids time, today more than ever. Many that I've talked to would much rather have girls along than the younger boys. I can sympathize with them as I remember the OA being the one time I didn't have to look out for younger scouts. Now, as an advisor I see myself doing much the same thing.

 

This has brought up another question. If Cub Scouts and Venturers cannot become members of the OA then can Cub Leaders or Venturing Leaders (male or female) be nominated? I think by nature of that statement the answer is no.

 

By the way can anyone tell me why everything I post is done twice.

[nldscout]

Backpacker,

you said

"In my council lodge more women are taking adult leadership roles in the lodge, including two Venture female leaders."

 

These leader must have been in a troop when they were nominated for membership as only Troops can nominate leaders.

 

AZ

Cub and Venture Crew leaders cannot be nominated unless they are also part of a troop.

[Proud Eagle]

Adults can receive nominations from one of two sources, depending upon what their primary registration is. If a person's primary registration is with a unit, then they are only eligible for nomination at the unit level. If a person's primary registration is at the district level they may be nominated by the district. All nominees should then be screened by a selection committee and only those who will be able to in some way contribute to the program should be made candidates.

 

Backpacker, I must say I certainly did not say that Venturers don't live up to the ideals of Scouting. They certainly can. I would certainly hope they all live up to the Venturing ideals. However, the ideals of Venturing are not the same as the ideals of Boy Scouting. All you have to do is read the fact sheets on the BSA website to figure out that much. For the Boy Scout program the ideals are the Oath and the Law. For the Venturing program the ideals are the Venturing Oath and Code. Those are not interchangeable standards in my opinion.

 

You also did not address the issue of Scout camping and summer camp. Since Venturing has very little connection with summer camp, and some Crews do not even engage in camping, I see this as being a somewhat critical area in evaluating the appropriateness and feasibility of opening OA to all Venturers.

 

Add to this the various ceremonial issues, the logistics and planning, should make it clear that this is not a closed case.

 

Also, to conclude that because female adults have been allowed there is no turning back from full female participation is a crock in my opinion. If you try to apply that logic to almost any other situation you will find it is no justification. Now, in terms of it being a slippery slope argument (we want to do thing A which we think is good, but it could lead to thing B which may not be good) there could be some basis for that. I take it that by your reasoning it is only right that females also be allowed as youth in Boy Scout Troops, Varsity Scout Teams, and Cub Scout Packs?

 

Keep in mind also that each of the programs of the BSA has specific Aims and Methods. Each program is designed to fit the target audience as best as possible. (In the case of Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting, the target audience is all male. Allowing females to be a member of the current program would be a disservice to them as they deserve a program designed for their needs just as much as the boys do. Now some will argue one generic program will do, but there is considerable evidence to support the idea that this will result in lower quality for both sexes compared to separate specialized programs.) So, what does this have to do with the Order of the Arrow? Well, it is part of the Boy Scout program (Boy Scouts, Venture Scouts, and Varsity Scouts, but not Cubs or Venturers). As such the OA is designed to fit the needs of supporting the Boy Scout program and its target audience.

 

Next, as to OA having changed, I can agree that change has taken place. However, may perspective is entirely within the time since females have become adult Arrowmen. I have seen a considerable shift in the candidates we are getting. I am also starting to see some changes at the officer level, though not so drastic.

 

Finally, I must say I don't plan on pulling my hair out (though I might if I had to worry about the 14 y/o girls hooking up with the 14 y/o guys on an OA weekend). I guess I am still young enough to not have to worry about hair loss (I hope). Also, considering how young I am to be a Lodge Adviser, I guess I can sympathize with the young candidates. On the other hand, I have a hard time imagining starting the OA experience at such a young age. After all, I entered the OA at age 15 as a Life Scout.