The War debate in the troop

[acco40]

Just a couple of thoughts ...

 

1) VentureScoutNY - you can't reword a quote. You can disagree with it or create your own or possibly correct a misquoted "quote" but sorry, one may not reword it.

 

2) Rooster - I've got a suggestion for you. Why not debate ideas without having to apply a label to them? As soon as you type some ridiculous statement and then attach a label (usually "liberal") to it, you lose your credibility.

 

Should a sixteen year old girl who desires an abortion have to (in the legal sense) inform her parents before a doctor can perform the procedure? Before you try and answer that (I'm really not asking for anyones opinion in reality) think about the "liberal" and "conservative" labels for a second. Most would label the position that the young woman should be able to proceed with the procedure without her parents consent or knowledge as the "liberal" position and the "conservative" position to be that the parents should at the very least, be informed prior to the procedure. But if put into the framework defined by so many self proclaimed conservative talking heads that I hear on the radio today of liberals believing in "more government" and conservatives in "less government" the labels should in reality be reversed. The point is, why spend any energy at all trying to label these positions and just debate the merits of the argument?

 

{Or as I learned in kindergarten - stop with the name calling.}(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Rooster7]

Hey, if "liberal blather" is enough to get me banned, so be it. I was criticizing a sentiment that sprung out of many universities in the sixties...and lives today in many parts of the country. This sentiment - sharing your parents opinion(s) is a sign of weakness - did not come from conservative thinking, but liberal thinking. Anyone old enough to remember the sixties, knows this to be true. My words were not designed or targeted to spark any one person's fury. But if they do, I feel no obligation to dance around the truth. I will live with whatever consequences that brings.

 

By the way, labels do serve a purpose. I have been labeled a conservative by many folks on this forum. I happily accept it. While there may be a few exceptions, the label general describes my political and social views. Just like white describes my race and male describes my gender. These are not insults. They are what they aredescriptive labels. Some of us wear them proudly. Apparently some others prefer not to be associated with those labels, but that doesnt make them any less true.

 

Acco40,

 

Your point regarding the abortion issue and the apparent contradiction of political views represented by conservative and liberal ideologies (i.e., more government vice less government) fails to consider the true nature of the debate. That is to say, a pre-born baby a fetus, is a life that the government is obligated to protect. Liberals do not feel this to be true. Conservatives do. If the debate was about individual freedoms (i.e., a womans right to chose elective surgery), conservatives would not be in this fight. They would agree that the government has no business regulating a womans freedom in this manner. Yet, your supposition ignores the premise that conservative base their argument upon that a fetus is a life, not a piece of tissue which one has a right to remove by elective surgery.

 

[Trevorum]

(off thread)

 

I will never cease to be amazed - and fascinated - by the twists and turns that an online discussion will take. The dynamics of this medium are truly unique in human discourse. I believe that if the same diverse group of good folks were chatting around the campfire instead of online, the same conversational thread would always take a very different path.

 

But let us return to the debate already in progress...

[acco40]

"Liberals do not feel this to be true. Conservatives do."

 

Rooster - you just don't get it. I don't pretend to so omnipotent to believe that I know how liberals and conservatives feel. If I had the power to brand what conservatives feel or think I could very easily trash them or hold them up on a pedestal to suit my desires. See, that is the problem. Feel free to discuss, debate, etc. any issues you want but please refrain from trying to label those thoughts.

 

Yes, I remember the 60's. Back then, conservative was a dirty word to most. It conjured up images of racism, pro-war, Nixon, etc. Archie Bunker / Meathead debates (really the 70s) were the stereotypical labels of the day. Was it fair or accurate? Of course not.

 

Now, again, I don't want to debate the abortion issue proper but how in the world can you put either a liberal or conservative label on the belief that a fetus (or pre-born baby or whatever description you would like to use) should or should not have legal protections as either liberal or conservative?

 

Trevorum - take it from a long time forum poster; the issues and politics section bounces all over the map and should only be entered with caution - especially if one's main purpose is to learn about Scouting.

[Rooster7]

Acco40,

 

Words have meaning. I know there are some who like to twist those meanings, but they have specific meaning none the less. Anyone staking claim to being a liberal or a conservative, is staking claim to a specific ideology and the policies that go with them. Obviously there are some exceptions, but the whole purpose of labels (as you like say) is to communicate something specific about yourself (a belief, a trait, a philosophy, etc.) or others, to others. You may not like the terms liberal or conservative, but they have meaning and to deny that is simply illogical.

 

but how in the world can you put either a liberal or conservative label on the belief that a fetus (or pre-born baby or whatever description you would like to use) should or should not have legal protections as either liberal or conservative?

 

Now you seethis statement is incredibly illogical. Are you trying to tell me that its ambiguous as to what liberals believe concerning the legal protections of a fetus? Clearly this is not so. They believe that a fetus have no legal protections. If they did, they wouldnt support abortion. Why are you trying to muddy the waters by implying anything differently?

 

[Hunt]

I wouldn't ban anybody for using the term "liberal blather," but I do recognize it as typical conservative cant...oops!

 

To me, the fallacy is the idea that what we call "liberals" and "conservatives" actually have consistent ideologies. They really don't--this can be readily seen when both groups defend states' rights to make laws, as long as they agree with the laws. I also always enjoy telling people that as a true conservative, I must oppose the death penalty because I could never trust the government enough to allow it to execute a citizen.

 

But to the original question here--I agree that the best way to deal with these debates is to turn them into real debates, or to counsel the boys to avoid topics that cause conflict.

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not sure where talk of banning anyone came from. Awhile back another poster made a disparaging comments about watching a football game with Rooster and I called him on it. The poster apologized and the discussion moved on. I am not sure where the concept that I was threatening banishment came from.

[johndaigler]

So, VAOrdeal, I hope you're paying attention and that you're quite pleased with yourself!!!!

 

Now, do you still wonder why the adult leadership of your unit stays away from your conflict?????

 

Do you know the prayer of St. Francis?? . . . it's easily learned, but easily forgotten.

 

 

 

jd

 

[BadenP]

All the debate in the world usually will not persuade a liberal or a conservative to change their positions on most topics, usually all they want to do is to force you to change your opinion.

 

Acco, do you know this Churchill story. At a party Churchill had gotten quite inebriated and made a comment that a female guest was not very attractive and quite homely. She heard the comment and immediately started to reprimand him that he was an unruly drunk to which he replied, "That is very true madam but when I wake up tommorrow I will be sober."

[scoutingagain]

Back to the intial issue:

 

VAOrdeal,

 

First of all I think it's great that you and your fellow scouts discuss the issue of the war or any other political issue. It shows all of you care about your country and its direction and leadership, regardless of which point of view anyone expresses. That's a much better position to be in than just apathetic. My guess is all of you are much likely to grow up to be voters and community leaders rather than stand on the sidelines of life and for your caring enough to discuss the issues you should be commended. You are also to be commended for not letting political difference get in the way of your friendships.

 

There are many examples of great friends with strongly differing politcal points of view. In today's world there's John McCain and John Kerry. In the 80's there was Tip O'Neil, Speaker of the House, one of those Massachusetts liberals, and President Reagan. (For some reason Massachusetts liberals are always identified as such as opposed to just regular liberals.) These relationships show that great friendships can transend political ideology.

 

I agree with those that suggest a formal debate. The most important thing to learn about democracy is that it tolerates differences of opinion. A debate is a great way to express viewpoints in a civil, structured way. Being able to debate different points of view about contoversial topics without having the discussion degenerate to name calling or just plain rudeness is a sign of maturity. Frankly it's, something most adults are not capable of. If you and your scout buddies can pull off a civil debate on this or anyother issue, you deserve a big Hoorah!

 

Just a few other observations.

 

I agree with Rooster on the issue of whether or not those that have the same political position as their parents can't think for themselves. I don't think it's fair to jump to that conclusion. However, ironically (at least from Rooster's point of view) It appears from what VA Ordeal has described, that those that agree with their parents hold positions that would be considered consistent with that of the Democratic Party or "liberal".

 

OGE,

 

With respect to Rooster's expression of being banned. Since you are in the postion of Participant/Moderator, you have certain authorities that the rest of us don't have. Therefore, it is possible that some could misinterpret your statements as statement of official admonition when you really don't mean them that way. I did not read your responses as such, but I could see how someone could, given your position relative to the rest of the participants.

 

SA

[Zahnada]

Now the way I heard the story was that a woman approached Churchill at a party.

 

Woman: Why Mr. Churchill, I do believe you are drunk.

Churchill: And you are ugly, madam. But I shall be sober in the morning.

 

How could such a man be voted out of office just months after the end of the war?

 

Another Churchill gem-

 

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

[Rooster7]

More Churchill folklore

 

Woman approaches a non-sober Churchill at a party and states:

Mr. Churchill, if I were your wife, Id put poison in your tea.

 

Churchill responds:

Madam, if you were my wife, Id drink it!

 

I cant vouch for the authenticity, but you gotta love it.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

See, now, isn't this nice, just a couple of Anglophiles swapping Churchill stories, my favorite Chuchill quote is "Sometimes it is not enough to do our best; we must do what is required." Lets see, was that Yoda or Mr.Miyagi that was based on old Winnie?

[acco40]

Sir Winston Churchill quotes that are quite apropos to posters on this forum:

 

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

 

Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room.

 

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.

 

and of course finally:

 

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

 

[Rooster7]

Yes. Churchill also offered these:

 

"The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it; ignorance may deride it; malice may distort it, but there it is."

 

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."