The War debate in the troop

[VAordeal]

Hello all. Recently i have noticed a problem during my troop's campouts. Well i know it is good to keep up with current affairs, and i am completly up2date with mine, i think its going overboard in my troop. My troop is heavily divided between the Right, the Center, and The Left. Some kids including myself have self formulated political opinions that differ slightly with our parents. Others just go with their parents politics. Often time on campouts the war debate comes up. This usually leads to trouble. I ususally dont join in the disucssion to a srious degree but i will occasionally comment if someone makes a dumb comment. But recently these arguments have grown nasty, i mean really nasty. So called liberal scouts refuse to talk with the so called conservative (thats me). If i tried to talk with someone who identified themselves as liberal my conservative friends would call me a traitr! I Think this is absolutly ridiculous and has no place in scouting. Some of my friends and I have brought it up to our leaders but they blow it off and say that it will die down. Does anyone have any suggestions on how this can be dealt with, because my troop's leaders sure dont care.

[johndaigler]

VA,

 

What's the debate really about? If it's about the War, then where would name-calling come into the situation?

 

You've labeled your peers as blue, red and purple. What do these labels help all of you accomplish?

 

Lastly, with all due respect, War is a complicated topic. How many of your peers are really informed and ready to think, and share more than opinions parrotted by adults?

 

I was a teacher and school administrator for a long time. I know better than to disrespect Scout age people, or to minimize their ability to think and see truths about the world we share. But, I also know that most of your peers are not ready to debate War and Govt.

 

Be patient with them. Listen and help them listen. Stick to clear information and ideas. Opinions get muddy and people hold on to them greedily and proudly. Just take a look at one of our threads on religion or homosexuality or rules or tolerance. Adults have a difficult time sharing without sneering and debating without debasing. Teenagers have had a lot less practice!

 

BTW, if your Leaders got too involved wouldn't you be resistant to adult interference in a situation that you boys can handle by yourselves?

 

Good Luck,

 

jd

[SemperParatus]

Why don't you suggest a real debate on the topic. One that is civil and follows pre-established debating rules.

 

http://cas.bethel.edu/dept/comm/npda/

 

Many times, in the preparation of your debating materials, you come to the realization that the other side has some very pertinent points and the emotions begin to fade.

 

After the debate, instruct the scouts that there are obvious strong points on each side, but as scouts we must not let that interfere with our sense of brotherhood and our adherence to the scout law.

 

Our troop has had debates on less serious matters (electronics in camp, etc.). What I found is that it really opens peoples eyes on the other side. Our scouts really get into the preparation of their points and must consider the points to be raised by others in the process. In so doing, the debated topic loses some of its 'perceived importance' as the process of preparation takes over.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[EagleInKY]

I'll allow our guys to have some debate. We have a variety of "labels" in our troop as well. When it degrades to disrespectul behavior on any one person's part, no matter which side they are on, the discussion stops. Luckily, it's only happened a couple of times. When I or another adult tells them the discussion is over, they are not to bring it up again. (Usually the "ban" would last for the remainder of the meeting or campout). It's also a good chance to bring in a lesson on living by the scout law (A Scout is Coureous is a good one).

[VAordeal]

Thank you for all of your responses. I agree with you, JD, that most of my peers are NOT ready to debate war and they are just parroting their parents' opinions. (only about 3 of us have views that differ from our parents. I think only about 4 of us are aware of whats really going on in the world) The organzied debate sounds like a good idea and i will suggest it. Thanks again for all the responses and good evening to all of you.

[acco40]

VAordeal - a conservative at your age? What is the world coming to?

 

One of my favorite quotes is from Winston Churchill:

 

Yes, but in the morning I'll be sober ... wait not that one.

 

Any 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.

[VentureScoutNY]

VA, some things you may have to agree to digagree about. I see too many friendships come to an end because of political beliefs. I agree, a debate would be good to have. It's what sets us Americans apart from all the wackos in other countries, who can not be civil and disagree without killing eachother...

 

Good for you though on knowing the issues and making an effort to resolve things between your fellow scouts.

 

 

acco I'm going to have to re-word that...

 

Any 20 year old that isn't a liberal can just see the truth long before the 40 year old can.

 

All depends on when that light bulb turns on.

 

Last time I checked I had a heart

 

YIS

 

[SemperParatus]

The funny thing about aging is that my brain becomes more conservative, my heart becomes more liberal, and my eyes need progressive lenses.

[Rooster7]

Yeah, and my waist line is a Libertarian.

 

...only about 3 of us have views that differ from our parents...

 

I agree. If you're going to take a stance, you shouldn't be parroting someone else's views without any independent thought. In short order, it will become clear to everyone that you haven't really pondered the issues. However, to be clear, you can echo your parents sentiments on issues and have a brain of your own. Many folks do share the same views as their parents, and are very capable in a debate. I guesswhat I'm trying to say is - Don't subvert your thinking to the ageless blather of liberals, a prime example of which is - Sharing your parents views makes one a child incapable of independent thinking, or a prude, or "some kind of Boy Scout" (which thanks to the popular media, appears to be an insult). Theres nothing wrong with political harmony in the same household. If you share the same values as your parents, it tends to be the natural outcome. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with being a Boy Scout.

[Rooster7]

double post - sorry...(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[KoreaScouter]

Debate is healthy if done within bounds; it makes you think. When it degenerates into name calling, it can ruin friendships, and even worse.

 

Without knowing any of the people involved, I might suggest that you approach your adult leaders again, especially if it's getting un-Scoutlike. I would also suggest your Troop consider Communications and/or Public Speaking as monthly program features, and collectively learn to practice debating skills in a controlled manner.

 

good luck...

 

KS

[johndaigler]

Rooster,

 

Here was a thread where you might have put some of your Conservative Agenda aside for a moment or two - or at least told the boy it was OK for him to think like his parents without taking the moment to spout anti-Liberal rhetoric. The conversation isn't about what to think or argue but HOW to Think and Argue.

 

For what my two cents and limited life experiences are worth -- I've never met a Liberal who thought that it was necessary to disagree with their parents. Some do, some don't. The behaviors of those who do are in their nature more noticeable than the behaviors of those who don't disagree. Neither have I met a Liberal who thought being a Boy Scout was necessarily a bad thing. Some do, some don't. The behaviors of those who do are in their nature more noticeable to us than the behaviors of those who don't.

[Trevorum]

I see the particular issue (liberal/conservative, red/blue, left/right, hawk/dove, idiot/thoughtful) as being irrelevant. Same thing regarding whether a boy agrees with his parents.

 

The issue is courteous behavior.

 

If I became aware of this happening, I would ask the SPL to take action and remind the boys that while differences of perspective are normal, and debate is healthy, we can avoid acrimony.

 

(and again, I'll apologize to Rooster, to whom I was discourteous a while back.)

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster, you could just as easily said "liberal viewpoint" rather than "ageless blather of liberal", its this kind of inflammatory rhetoric that many poster's object to and really dosnt further the discussion, On many forums this is considered 'flamming" and its only goal is to produce reactions.

 

I remind all, we can debate any issue we wish, but do it in a scoutlike maner

[Eamonn]

Looks as if I will have to see about taking a role in the Wizard Of Oz - Being that I'm over 40 and still think of myself as being to the left.

I think that there is a time and place for everything and maybe we might take a lesson from Johnny Cash:

This musical aggregation toured the entire nation

Singing the traditional ballads

And the folk songs of our land

They performed with great virtuosity

And soon they were the rage

But political animosity prevailed upon the stage

 

Now this should be a lesson if you plan to start a folk group

Don't go mixin' politics with the folk songs of our land

Just work on harmony and diction

Play your banjo well

And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself.

Eamonn.