I Just Don't Get It!!

[SemperParatus]

I think I'm beginning to understand the fictitious Bobby Fisher No Jews Allowed Chess Club.

 

Sort of like the real-live Fellowship of Christian Athlete chapters that are in most high schools around here. They are essentially school sponsored but are, as the name clearly indicates, for Christians only. I suppose a Jew or an Atheist could sneek in, but it really isn't meant for them, now is it? I guess that's discrimination too and so these chapters should be shut down, only who's being discriminated against if that were to happen?

 

Oh, and let's not forget about school National Honor Society chapters that discriminate against stupid people.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SemperParatus writes:

I think I'm beginning to understand the fictitious Bobby Fisher No Jews Allowed Chess Club.

 

No you aren't because you are again comparing a club owned and operated by the school itself with a private group that meets in the school like any other private group. Public schools don't run Fellowship of Christian Athletes, which is a private, evangelical organization; public schools can't try to convince their students to be Christians.

[Eamonn]

Every new unit signs the New Unit Application Form. http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-402.pdf

It clearly states the BSA policy.

When I do get involved with starting a new unit I do make a point of going over the form.

I just don't understand how it can be said:

"yet they still dishonestly issue charters to government agencies"?

I owned several bars over the years. In the state where I live it is illegal to sell alcohol to someone who is visibly intoxicated. There is no law about selling alcohol to an alcoholic. Over the years that I operated these bars people that I knew had a problem with alcohol were my best customers. They were my bread and butter. There is a question of ethical standards, I tried to rationalize my selling it to them by telling myself that if I didn't sell them alcohol, they would just go some place else. I also knew that my staff wouldn't sell them one too many and would do everything possible to make sure that they didn't drive while intoxicated.

I fail to see where the BSA is being dishonest. The information about who we are and what we stand for and how we do business is available for the asking. Most of the pertinent information is on the New Unit Application Form.

While I can't say what goes on elsewhere, I do know that in all the units that I have been involved with starting, everything is done in the open, there is no secret meetings. We do have two Scoutreach packs, that are chartered by Community Centers and the Community Centers are under the management of HUD. They (The people running the Community Centers, came to us. They wanted to use our program. I asked if they knew if what they were doing was OK with HUD,I was assured that it was. How could I or the BSA be at fault? I asked what to the best of my knowledge was all the right questions. I armed with the paperwork provided by the BSA, at no time made any false representations about where the BSA and our Council stand. I will admit that I didn't cover all the BSA policy's on everything. I didn't cover smoking, or guns or homosexuals or Go-Karts. I did let them know where they could find out more information about Scouting and the BSA.

The charters are in the name of the Community Centers,because that is the way that they wanted things set up. They chose not to share very much information with me about the inner workings of their organization.By signing the application they agreed to abide by the Scout Law and Scout Oath along with the Charter, bylaws and rules and regulations of the Boy Scouts of America.

We now have two packs where once there was none, the little Lads and their families are growing closer and having fun.

I don't see that I have done anything dishonest

Eamonn.

[Eagledad]

>>And if you don't think anyone has ever suggested that certain races or creeds are better at things like chess or science, you need to get out more.>This isn't restricting freedom of choice, it's insuring that government agencies like public schools don't unlawfully discriminate.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eamonn writes:

Every new unit signs the New Unit Application Form. http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-402.pdf

It clearly states the BSA policy.

 

It does? Where's the part about gays not being admitted?

 

By the way, part of the remaining ACLU Winkler litigation (the lawsuit where the Dept. of Defense agreed to drop all BSA charters back in November) is over HUD grants. Whoever signed off on the HUD grant's nondiscrimination requirement could be charged with fraud.

 

Eagledad writes:

>>This isn't restricting freedom of choice, it's insuring that government agencies like public schools don't unlawfully discriminate.

[Rooster7]

Merlyn,

 

Try looking at the Scouts as an alternative vice the only game in town.

 

Public schools offer band for children that know how to play a musical instrument. Gee - that doesnt seem fair since my children dont know how to play a musical instrument. And the kids next door, you couldnt pay them to play a musical instrument. Yet, everybody has to pay taxes to support the band.

 

Public schools offer football and other team sports. Yet I know kids that dont have any athletic ability and would be cut from the team if they tried out. I know others that hate competitive sports. Still, everybody has to pay taxes to support these teams.

 

Public schools support the science club. Science clubs that very often teach and talk about evolution as if its fact vice theory. This seems wrong to me since creationism is a theory too. Surely you scoff, but creationism has been a theory for thousands of years. Evolution has only been around for a few decades.

 

When youre done charging this windmill, whats next? Near as I can tell, your rights to ignore God have not been violated. And by my accounting, if youre being unfairly taxed because a public school in your area may be supporting Scouts, then I too should get a rebate from my area school system because it strives to present curriculum that totally disregards God as a possibility.

 

[crgholthus]

Well,I have a headache,after all this.

I dont know if I'm jewish,catholic,or christian.

But I accept anyone who hasn't tried to harm me or hustle me.

We're all on a scouter website,presumably because we're all scouts her,who have taken the scout oath.

Remember that oath? Stand firm in your faith,Gentlemen,fore at least we have something to believe in.

By the way,I am a Christian Boy Scout Leader,& am faithful to that every day. Are some of losing site of what we're doing on this earth. If it's not to help our fellow man,& to guide the leaders of tomorrow,I quit.

I love scouting because the Lord is involved,(And I get to wear a really cool uniform!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Rooster7 writes:

Public schools offer band for children that know how to play a musical instrument. Gee - that doesnt seem fair since my children dont know how to play a musical instrument. And the kids next door, you couldnt pay them to play a musical instrument. Yet, everybody has to pay taxes to support the band.

 

And anyone who wants to join the band can join.

 

Not so with the school's Cub Scout Pack - no atheists allowed (no girls either, but if the school observes Title IX requirements, that part is OK; the "no gays" part is also unlawful in many states, but that would vary).

 

If the school excluded kids with no musical ability, and it was unlawful for public schools to discriminate on the basis of musical ability, you'd have an analogy. But they don't, and it isn't, so you don't.

 

Public schools offer football and other team sports. Yet I know kids that dont have any athletic ability and would be cut from the team if they tried out. I know others that hate competitive sports. Still, everybody has to pay taxes to support these teams.

 

And if it was unlawful for public schools to discriminate on the basis of athletic ability, you'd have a point.

 

As it is, it IS unlawful for public schools to discriminate on the basis of religion, so school-run Cub Scout Packs can't legally exclude atheists.

 

Public schools support the science club. Science clubs that very often teach and talk about evolution as if its fact vice theory. This seems wrong to me since creationism is a theory too. Surely you scoff, but creationism has been a theory for thousands of years. Evolution has only been around for a few decades.

 

You ignorance of what constitutes a scientific theory notwithstanding, school science clubs don't exclude students on the basis of religion, either. School-run Scout Packs do.

 

When youre done charging this windmill, whats next?

 

There's still quite a lot of discrimination against atheists, even after all goverment charters are removed.

[Eamonn]

Merlyn, old Chap,

Please don't let this become an on-line reenactment of the Argument Sketch of Monty Python fame. I am happy to hear where you are coming from. I may not agree with you, but as the title of this thread reads, there are some things that I just don't get.

You posted:

Would you point out to the school that they have to practice religious discrimination when they charter a BSA unit? I've actually talked to a school principal who was also the chair of the Three Rivers District in the Viking Council whose school had a Venture Crew; he said atheists and gays could join Turns out he was wrong.

I replied by saying:

Every new unit signs the New Unit Application Form. http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-402.pdf'>http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-402.pdf

It clearly states the BSA policy.

I went on to say that:

The information about who we are and what we stand for and how we do business is available for the asking. Most of the pertinent information is on the New Unit Application Form.

Just for good measure I added:

I will admit that I didn't cover all the BSA policy's on everything. I didn't cover smoking, or guns or homosexuals or Go-Karts. I did let them know where they could find out more information about Scouting and the BSA.

Just to be a right royal pain I also added:

By signing the application they agreed to abide by the Scout Law and Scout Oath along with the Charter, bylaws and rules and regulations of the Boy Scouts of America.

About two hours later you asked:

Eamonn writes:

Every new unit signs the New Unit Application Form. http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-402.pdf

It clearly states the BSA policy.

It does? Where's the part about gays not being admitted?

I thought that I had covered that?

Can you please explain how it is wrong that I meet with a representative of a group, who has requested the meeting. I being the nice chap that I am meet with him provide documents that say that all adults must agree to abide by the Scout Oath and Law. I tell him that if he needs more information he can request a copy of the bylaws and charter of the BSA. I am in no way coercing him. I am not trying to hide anything. Any and everything that he needs to know is out there.

Is it the fault of the BSA if the school principal failed to read what he was signing ?

I do agree that I didn't cover the homosexual policy.My thinking being that unless he had been living on some other planet, he would be aware of all the fuss.

My employer uses different vendors. Once and a while we change vendors. The reason for the change is not up for debate. All I get is a memo stating that as of such and such a date we will cease buying from company A and will start buying from company B.

There have been occasions when people who work for the same employer as I do, don't like the change and they continue to deal with company A. I think the guys that continue to do business with company A are at fault. I fail to see how the blame can be put on company A.

Looking at the HUD thing, first the charter is not in HUD's name. But if HUD employees are informed that they are not to enter into agreements with the BSA, and they go ahead and do so anyway, isn't this the same as the guys who continue to do business with company A?

If school districts know that chartering BSA units is not allowed, the ruling is their ruling not the BSA ruling how do you see the BSA as being dishonest?

If school districts are told not to enter into agreements with the Bobby Fischer Chess clubs for whatever reason and they continue to do so. Is Bobby Fischer at fault?

Please don't get back to me by telling me about what cases might be in the courts or what the ACLU is doing. I really would appreciate if we could keep this where we are and I would like to see how you see what the BSA and it would seem me are doing that is dishonest.

Eamonn

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eamonn writes:

 

Is it the fault of the BSA if the school principal failed to read what he was signing ?

 

A few times, no. When it happens thousands of times every year, year after year, and the national BSA is quite aware of court cases where school administrators testify under oath that they THOUGHT atheists and gays could join THEIR Pack or Troop because they're a school, I consider the BSA to be acting dishonestly.

 

If a gun shop sells a gun to an ex-felon, it might be a mistake. When it happens thousands of times, it isn't a mistake.

 

I do agree that I didn't cover the homosexual policy.My thinking being that unless he had been living on some other planet, he would be aware of all the fuss.

 

With legal contracts, particularly with government agencies, making such assumptions is incredibly reckless.

 

Looking at the HUD thing, first the charter is not in HUD's name. But if HUD employees are informed that they are not to enter into agreements with the BSA, and they go ahead and do so anyway, isn't this the same as the guys who continue to do business with company A?

 

No, every HUD grant requires a nondiscrimination agreement. To get a HUD grant, someone has to sign an agreement which will include a nondiscrimination clause. If that person then uses that grant money in some way that violates the nondiscrimination clause, they can be fined and/or charged with fraud.

 

If school districts know that chartering BSA units is not allowed, the ruling is their ruling not the BSA ruling how do you see the BSA as being dishonest?

 

Because the BSA also knows this, yet still issues charters to public schools.

[evmori]

And anyone who wants to join the band can join.

 

Not true. If that person has absolutely no musical ability they can't join. Discrimination against the musically impaired! Call the ACLU! Get a lawsuit started! Little Johnny can't play any instrument but wants to be a member of the band! He should be allowed! Discrimination!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Hello Merlyn, Sorry for the delay. I do understand. My point is that there is only ONE way to be a Boy Scout. I guess if the Bobby Fischer club was the ONLY way to be a member of a chess club the analogy holds true. I just saw chess as more of an individual endeavor. By the way, I am aware of the different ways race and other things have been associated with greater skill or intelligence. (Thinking just now about how Jewish basketball teams dominated the pros at one time and how Jews were supposed to be especially suited to this game due to innate racial personality traits.) Seems laughable now but the prejudice was and is real. And I am aware of it.

[dan]

Many kids are in bands that play really bad. So a better analogy would be.

 

Can my son be in the band if he refuses to play a instrument?

 

Can my son be in the BSA if he does not believe in God?

 

Merlyn you keep saying that schools CAN'T be a CO for Scouts, this is where you are wrong. You should be saying that you do not think they should. You are mixing up the words can't and shouldn't.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Dan asks, "Can my son be in the band if he refuses to play a instrument?"

 

Well, I don't know about your son's band, but when I was in high school, we had a number of "ringers" who couldn't play any instrument. Each week they would take the spot of someone who was sick so that the formations wouldn't have any gaps. Learning a new spot each week was hard work and we were glad to have them.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Dan, I mean "can't" in the legal sense; public schools can't legally charter discriminatory BSA units.