All I want is an explanation.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad, stop lying about my position; I'm opposed to any government support of a supposedly "private, discriminatory" organization that excludes atheists (and given your bigoted statements about atheists, it should be pretty clear why). If the BSA can't survive without leeching off my government, it's hardly a private organization.

[Eagledad]

OK, if I'm out of line, I humbly oppologize. But didn't I read somewhere that after you've cleared the BSA out of the governement, there are other issues with the BSA you can still attack?

 

By the way, just what do I say that makes me a bigot?

 

Barry

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

There are certainly other issues - for example, I don't think Learning for Life has any business teaching ethics to students (particularly atheist and gay students) as it's a wholly-owned subsidiary of an organization that discriminates against them.

 

Your bigoted statements are your statements about atheists and morality.

[Eagledad]

Hi Merlyn

 

I don't understand, are you saying I'm a bigot because I'm not atheist? Are you saying we are both bigots because of different views of God?

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'm saying you're a bigot because you make unwarranted assumptions about the morality of atheists as a class based, as far as I can tell, entirely on your religious prejudices against them. Hunt has already pointed out problems with your assertions.

[Eamonn]

< I don't think Learning for Life has any business teaching ethics to students (particularly atheist and gay students) as it's a wholly-owned subsidiary of an organization that discriminates against them. >

 

Merlyn, Old Chap,

Come on you can do better than that. While I don't agree with a lot of what you stand for, you do most of the time put forward a good argument.

What you are saying is much the same as saying "I don't think that Philip Morris had any business making cheese"

That was of course before the parent company for Philp Morris and Kraft Foods became Altria.

As I have posted in the past I don't like my donation to the BSA to be used for LFL, because LFL doesn't stand for or meet the values that I hold dear.

Eamonn.

 

[evmori]

Eagledad,

Merlyn a bigot? Where did you ever get that idea? Just because he seems to hate anyone who has religion and doesn't agree with him?

 

Know what Merlyn, if you are worried about the BSA "leeching off" "your" government then you are clearly paranoid. There are other organizations who "leech off" our government that are much worse than the BSA. And since it is also "my" government, I'm more than happy they support this fine organization.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

Whether you are religious or not, your system of morality is ultimately based on something that you have to take on faith--that you can't prove to be true. For example, for many Christians, that bedrock belief would be something like, "The Bible is true." If you accept that the Bible is true, then you can derive your moral beliefs from what the Bible says.

If you're an atheist, you might believe that, "Whether an action harms others is the measure of whether it is good or bad." You can then derive your system of morality from that.

But whether you are are religious or not, your system of morality is complicated, and was developed over a long period of time by other people, with many influences.

For example, Eagledad's post suggests that he thinks (as would virtually everyone alive now) that slavery is immoral. Well, you can't prove that by the words of the Bible, which recognize slavery as perfectly normal, never condemn it, and don't even prohibit Christians from owning slaves. It is an evolving concept of the broader moral commands of the Bible that have led most Christians to now condemn slavery as immoral.

I guess I just don't find persuasive the argument that religious people are more moral because their morals are based on timeless, revealed values, when they can't agree on the values, the values change over time, and vast numbers don't even live by the values they claim to honor.

[Eagledad]

>>I guess I just don't find persuasive the argument that religious people are more moral because their morals are based on timeless, revealed values, when they can't agree on the values, the values change over time, and vast numbers don't even live by the values they claim to honor.>Whether you are religious or not, your system of morality is ultimately based on something that you have to take on faith--that you can't prove to be true

[anarchist]

see below(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[anarchist]

This thread truely was a set up for a BS session...no one can win and while it makes a great read... its is like me; a pinko, commie,mealie mouth liberal democrat trying to get some of my neo con, facist, GOP friends to vote for John Keary...'taint gonna happen...

 

but I do feel the need for a factual correction;

Eagledad,

your statement about our laws being derived from or Judeo-Christian driven... is unfortunately, untrue.

Most of the concepts of even the ten commandments were/are found in other cultures and religions. Most American Christians fail to recognize or believe this but it is true...just like the Christian 'co-oping' of holidays...That does not mean the rule or law is wrong just that someone worked it out before Christians did...

Many instances exist of these codified rules long before Moses climbed the mountain...so please refrain from repeating...a non fact.(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[Rooster7]

Anarchist,

 

Please give specific examples to support your claims. I am curious. What societies predating MOSES claimed the precepts of the Ten Commandments or a good portion of them as a basis for their morality?

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

This may help.

 

Moses lived from 1571 until 1451 or 120 years, according to the records. Until this time, the Hebrews were more of a tribe of families, instead of a nation. Several well established societies existed and had civil codes and or rules to live by before Mosess time. The Egyptian culture had been highly developed both intellectually and physically from their inception. Moses knew well their laws. At the time of Moses, Egypts expansion included most of the known world under Thothmess III. Greece had developed its system of gods and sacrifices by this time. Assyria and Babylonia were nations with rules. The Code of Hammurabi had long been developed and had been written on a black stone monument eight feet high for all to see and follow. The code begins and ends by addressing the gods. Anyone that neglected or destroyed the law was cursed. Testifying falsely resulted in death. False judges were fined and expelled. The Hebrew idea of an eye for an eye was taken from this code.

 

The known world was fairly small and they were intelligent beings. They communicated within and outside their borders and were clearly influenced by those interactions. They had a history, gods, and tried to live in peace, as we still attempt even to this day.

 

FB

 

 

 

[boleta]

Please refer to Trevorum's post with regard to this discussion.

 

Believe it or not- many of the perfectly acceptable faiths that do duty to God and obey the Scout Law to be Reverent, do not believe Jesus Christ is the personal Savior!!! It might be nice if one puts the shoe on the other foot. Imagine having to say "Allah" instead of "God" in our Oath. By the way, Allah means God in Arabic.

 

When the invocation ends with the words "in your name we pray" and refers to J.C., I know this will surprise many of you.... it may not be what the entire audience is feeling. It may even be offensive to those non-believers of Christianity that are perfectly good Scouts and Scouters. This discussion keeps missing the main point of the Atheists- why should their perfectly good morality be excluded from BSA?

 

Until the rules change, that's just the way it is (see my previous post). You know, almost any Spiritual belief IS acceptable to BSA, i.e. many Native American religions. This is deemed important to those who run the organization (and its founder).

 

ps I agree completely that governmental organizations should NOT be involved in our Charter process.

[Eagledad]

>>This discussion keeps missing the main point of the Atheists- why should their perfectly good morality be excluded from BSA?