All I want is an explanation.

[evmori]

Merlyn,

Atheists rights? Are these different from non-atheist rights? Don't atheists have the same rights as all Americans? Or are you looking for "special" rights for atheists?

 

And your continual "you are incapable of learning" is getting old! I am capable of learning more than you know! It is you who are close-minded & incapable of learning.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, atheists have the same rights as theists, which includes things like not having their own schools own & operate youth groups which exclude them based on their religious views. And your inability to learn has been pointed out by a number of posters.

[Eamonn]

"atheists have the same rights as theists, which includes things like not having their own schools own & operate youth groups which exclude them based on their religious views.

Why can't atheists get together and have their schools and youth groups?

I sent my Son to a Catholic School and the church has it's own youth group.

Eamonn.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'm referring to public schools chartering Cub Scout Packs, which exclude atheists.

[evmori]

Actually, Merlyn, Cub Scout & Boy Scout packs don't exclude atheists. Atheists don't meet the membership requirements of the BSA therefore, excluding themselves from the BSA. I understand just fine. Wish you could.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[powdersons]

Does the BSA discriminate? Yes. Is it a good thing? Yes. As simply as I can put it I respect your right not to believe and once you tell me you have no interest in hearing my reasons why you are wrong I will leave you alone and never mention it again. But, I have the right to believe and you need to respect my right to believe, which includes, in my Christian beleif at least, an obligation to try to show you that you are wrong.

 

I also have the right to raise my children according to what I believe is right. I believe that believing in God is right. BSA is one of the only places where I am assured that those who will be around by children believe the same way and will show this by deed and example.

 

If athiest were allowed in BSA then all religion would have to be removed from the program. Maybe I am wrong, but I doubt that you are willing to become a leader and sit through Scouts' Own and prayers at meetings, etc., just because those who believe in God want to do these things. My sons are in Scouts because Scouts do these things. The religious aspect of Scouting is as important as the non-religious aspects. What makes Scouting so special is that the religious and non-religious are done together.(This message has been edited by powdersons)

[packsaddle]

powdersons, you stated, "But, I have the right to believe and you need to respect my right to believe, which includes, in my Christian beleif at least, an obligation to try to show you that you are wrong."

In this unit, if you approached the Hindu, the Moslem, the Buddhist, or the Jew and engaged in such activity, you would be met with resistance (to put it mildly) by the troop and especially by the parents of the respective boy(s). Proselytizing is not part of the BSA program. Religious belief is primarily the responsibility of the family and the parents and your attempt to show their beliefs to be false would met by a very negative response, one that, in fact, would detract from the program.

 

Furthermore, your statement, "BSA is one of the only places where I am assured that those who will be around by children believe the same way and will show this by deed and example." would not be valid in this troop either because there most certainly would be different views and faiths. I doubt that this unit is unique in this aspect.

[Trevorum]

I'll say it again, until I am blue in the face:

 

BSA doe NOT define "God" as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity known respectively as Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah.

 

"BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion" (BSA Position Statement, 6/91).

 

[Hunt]

Looking back over this thread, I have a few observiations. Here we have a person who was an Eagle Scout, and thus presumably for whom Scouting was important. Now he and BSA have come to a parting of the ways over the religious test for membership. He asks for an explanation. He gets several (in my opinion, reasonable and adequate ones). He keeps pushing, presumably for the "real" explanation, and several posters oblige him by stepping up the anti-atheist rhetoric. He finally departs, labelling us as fools and zealots. Is this how we--supposedly the religious ones--want to to handle somebody like this? Is mhager more or less likely to become an active enemy of Scouting after this exchange? I'm not saying that one should back down, but really, the best practice is simply to keep saying that most of the members of BSA believe that it is important for a boy's life to have a spiritual dimension, and that membership in BSA is reserved for people who agree with that. It's too bad that mhager no longer agrees, but we hope that what he learned as a Scout will help him in other ways, and if he ever changes mind, he's welcome to come back then. Isn't that the message we should convey?

A few other points:

1. Atheists will never accept the idea that they don't have real morality. While religious people believe that their morality is based in divine revelation, different religions have different revelations and different moralities. (Plus most religions have changed their positions on various moral issues over the years.) So this argument is pretty hollow for BSA. Also, I think morality should be judged by deeds, not words--and I've known plenty of supposedly religious people whose morality was pretty lousy in practice.

2. While I don't want my children to be taught atheism in Scouts, I don't want them to be taught Zorastrianism, either. So this is a wasted argument, too.

3. Don't ask the guy if he lied when he applied for Eagle Scout. Answer his argument on the merits, rather than impugning his integrity.

[SemperParatus]

Trevorum,

 

It sounds like you have one of the most religiously diverse units around.

 

Just out of curiosity, when reciting the Scout Oath does your unit say 'God'? Or do the Wiccans say 'All', the Muslim's say 'Allah', the Unitarian Universalists say 'Spirit of love and truth'?

[Trevorum]

Semper, I really don't think so. We just reflect the community. I suspect that most troops are similar. We're probably about 40% Protestant and 40% Catholic with the rest a variety of minority faiths.

As you can tell, being a minority, I am sensitive to folks in the majority blithely assuming that BSA somehow prefers one religion over another.

 

(And I know you are just joshing me about the Oath.)

[Eagledad]

>>While religious people believe that their morality is based in divine revelation, different religions have different revelations and different moralities. (Plus most religions have changed their positions on various moral issues over the years.) So this argument is pretty hollow for BSA.>BSA doe NOT define "God" as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity known respectively as Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah.

[Trevorum]

Barry, for the record:

 

2001 polling data show that "... 81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion... 52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant; 24.5% are Roman Catholic; 1.3% are Jewish; 0.5% are Muslim... 14.1% do not follow any organized religion..."

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

 

[Hunt]

"There may be some give and take by a few churches, but I cant think of any major moral issue that has changed in my lifetime."

 

Maybe my lifetime has lasted longer, but I think the view of many religious groups about racial segregation has changed enourmously over the last 40+ years. A number of churches have changed their positions on homosexuality (some even ordaining homosexual clergy). Also, even within the Judeo-Christian heritage there are huge differences in what is considered moral behavior--divorce, dietary laws, proper roles of women, gambling, drinking, pacifism, you name it. All based on revelation, or interpretation of revelation. My point is that you can't get too far in arguing that your morality is based on eternal truths (v. the atheist's morality, which is supposedly just based on his own opinion), when there is an endless variety of versions of the eternal truths, often in conflict with one another.

The bottom line, for me, is that BSA has decided that it is for people who believe that there are eternal truths of some kind. I just don't think that can be defended by reference to morality.

[Eagledad]

Thanks Trevorum, I cant remember where I got my numbers, but they dont really change the point. Most every law or policy, good or bad, is Judeo Christian driven.

 

Your examples Hunt are basically self-serving behaviors that have pushed the boundaries values for many hundreds of years. Man learns from his struggles and the pendulum swinging one way or the other because divine revelation keeps trying to pull it back to the center. Slavery comes to mind. Man's flaw is we have to see ourselves at our worst to become so disgusted that we turn away and change.

 

I have found that eternal truths dont collide as much as mans interpretation of the eternal truths. For example, the Christians are blamed for resisting the acceptance of homosexuality as normal behavior, yet much of their support comes from the Old Testament or Jewish books. And I understand the Korans readings on the subject is much stricter than the Old or New Testament. God is of one mind, but man has to learn the hard way.

 

Im not sure what we are debating really because what Ive stated is pretty much just facts, not opinion. Our laws and the laws of Western Europe are based from Judeo Christian principles or values. Atheists either accept those values or make up their own do to lack of any other resource.

 

Let me ask this, Merlyn_LeRoy pretty much admits he is out to kill the BSA because he wants revenge for its discrimination against atheist. What value in the scout law or oath would support that kind of action?

 

Barry