All I want is an explanation.

[evmori]

I have seen shocking bigotry and unseemly venom, especially from evmori.

My posts in this thread were:

mhager,

Were you an atheist when you were a Scout and earned your Eagle? The BSA is a private organization that has membership requirements. Since you don't meet those requirements, you can't be a member.

and

"Religious discrimination is immoral."

Huh? Based on what definition of morality?

 

Sounds like sour grapes! mhager couldn't find someone who agrees with him so now we are the bad ones!

 

If you think my posts are bigoted & full of venom, you must be reading something I can't see. I am neither bigoted or hateful. Too bad the same can't be said for you. I will add you to my prayer list.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[packsaddle]

mhager, I think I understand your feelings on this as well as how emotion tends to take hold of us in matters of faith. However, I would like to come to the defence of evmori here. He is human just like the rest of us and is susceptible to emotion in just the same way as you and I are. I sincerely doubt that, under the surface, he has any malice toward others. Just my opinion. Besides, if you look through the forum a while, you'll see that he is a cream puff compared to some others. Ed, you hear that? You're a cream puff! I just can't get away from food for some reason.

[Trevorum]

I don't think he really wanted an "explanation" after all. We gave him several.

 

I think he just wanted an argument.

[cajuncody]

I read through this over the course of a couple of days and kept from replying because I could see the set up. I wanted to add that how could I expect an athiest to teach my son proper behavior if he doesn't bow his head during prayer. It is sometimes hard to get a 7 yr old to remember that and if he pointed out "well our CM doesn't why should I?" I would be upset with leadership.

Now, the reason I am replying is off topic but a valid point. Why at the end, when the gloves came off and Mhager resorted to name calling and showing his true nature (no, I don't think a Christian would have posted a message like that) did he have to resort to regional insults? He responded " "them's the rules so that's what we do". " and he was clearly calling us idiots but doing it by using a typed southern reference. I have been told all my life that when a person from other parts of the country hear a southerner speak that they always lower their expectations of our IQ. His reply is proof of that. So sad to see an Eagle fly so far off course.

Kristi

 

[Rooster7]

Perhaps the title of this thread should have been,

 

All I want is an explanation

that will make me happy

even though I realize most folks on this forum don't agree with my point of view

and I will probably continue to argue until Im blue in the face

or resort to name calling

whatever comes first!

 

But I must admit, his title was shorter, if not misleading. Or how about, "What's wrong with you people?"

 

Either way, from his first post, it was pretty obvious where this thread was headed.

 

[Trevorum]

Kristi, I don't agree with you.

 

My faith does not call for me to bow my head during prayer as do Christians. Neither do I prostrate myself as do Muslims. I am nonetheless highly reverent. I am respectful of those who do bow ther heads and have never made it an issue (because it isn't). Please don't expect everyone to share your particular rituals.

[cajuncody]

Trevorum,

I appreciate that you don't agree with me on that point. It was a poorly chosen example. I should have said that it would be a poor example if the CM could not show proper reverence. Thus my quandry would have been how am I to teach my son proper reverence if an adult leader that he looks up to can not show it.

Thank you for pointing out the flaw in my ill conceived email

Kristi

[Trevorum]

Rooster, (are you ready for this?)

 

I agree with you!

 

Kristi, de nada.

[Laurie]

sst3rd--it sure did seem like a setup, but the question is often asked, and for those who sincerely want to discuss how religion and scouting go together, it seems that this thread can give several reasons.

 

Merlyn, my question was just that--a question. I find it hard to understand how one without a religion can even begin to understand and encourage a youth to grow in his own religion. For me, to have to deny what I believe would be a problem for me; for an atheist to have to support what he does not believe--it would seem that would be a problem for him too. I don't limit to this to religion; I think it applies in all areas. Wouldn't it be hard for someone steals from others to teach trustworthy? For the abuser (verbal or physical) to teach kindness?

 

Barry's most recent post says it better than I can, but basically those with religion--even differing religions--can find common ground where the one without it doesn't share that. Barry, if I've got you wrong, please correct me.

 

Pack, I know of a leader who would be and has been excellent in emergencies and outdoor skills. However, same leader ridicules those who "have religion", is known for name calling and lying and showing contempt to most around this leader, yet this leader remains in a position of influence. I wonder if the leader were to have some form of religion if that might effect the example set? And before you think I'm saying those with religion are perfect, nope, not even close.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Laurie writes:

Merlyn, my question was just that--a question. I find it hard to understand how one without a religion can even begin to understand and encourage a youth to grow in his own religion.

 

That isn't exactly the same thing as what you wrote earlier, as "an atheist" is not the same as "one without a religion", since there are atheists who do follow non-theistic religions (such as atheist Buddhists, as I mentioned), and there are theists who do not have a religion (and would still be acceptable as BSA leaders).

 

For me, to have to deny what I believe would be a problem for me; for an atheist to have to support what he does not believe--it would seem that would be a problem for him too.

 

Do you think Rooster7 would be good at encouraging a pagan Scout to grow in his (that is, the pagan Scout's) religion?

 

Your suggested example of why scout leaders ought to have a religion is hardly an argument against atheist leaders per se, because the potential problems don't arise from the leader being an atheist, the problems arise due to whatever religious differences there are between the leader and the scout. And, of course, it makes no sense to offer it as a reason to exclude atheists, because if atheists weren't kicked out, there would also be atheist scouts.

[Eagledad]

>>Barry's most recent post says it better than I can, but basically those with religion--even differing religions--can find common ground where the one without it doesn't share that. Barry, if I've got you wrong, please correct me.

[Laurie]

Barry, thanks--glad I didn't twist your words.

 

Merlyn, I'll just have to admit to what must already be obvious: I don't understand atheism. It is, in my understanding, a lack of religion or denial of God. To be honest, I haven't spent much time on that either because God is so real to me and the ideas that he doesn't exist or shouldn't be held in reverence are something I simply can't grasp. I'm sorry if the way I've worded my questions is confusing.

 

I won't single out any one person, so I'm not ignoring your question about Rooster, but I'm not getting into a discussion about him either. I will tell you that *I* would not be a good leader in respect to encouraging a youth in his belief in paganism. Why? I disagree with it and believe it to be a practice that goes against God (like my understanding of atheism, there may be far more to this than I'm aware of) and therefore wouldn't allow one to do his duty to God. If BSA accepts paganism as a religion, then I misunderstand BSA's DRP. Taken as a whole, it seems that BSA is saying one must show reverence as well as do his duty to God, which seems to indicate that the reverence shown should be to God. Now I'm going to ramble, and I don't want to do that; I've already written more than intended but was trying to clarify my previous words, which seem to be confusing.

 

My point originally was not about me but rather about how the youth can introduce questions or topics of discussion that someone without religion (which is my understanding of atheism) might have a hard time with. The question was asked why this is important. I think the question I pose shows that it may be important. You know where I stand; I know where you stand; we've both posted plenty on that here. But can you admit that

[Laurie]

You know, I kind of wish we were having this chat around a campfire. Putting these thoughts into writing doesn't allow for the give and take type of dialogue that would do it more justice.

[Trevorum]

Laurie, since we're chatting I hope you'll let me point out that maybe you do misunderstand the DRP. BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God, reserving that to the Scout and his family. Paganism is an ancient and very honorable religion which shares many, many ethical principles with Christianity. Pagans just have a different interpretation of God. Just as do Hindus or Zoroastrians, both of which we all know have perfectly fine religions.

[Trevorum]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but BSA does NOT define "God" as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity known respectively as Yahweh, Jehovah, or Allah.

 

As we near Scout Sunday/Sabbath, it behooves all Scout leader to remember this and to be respectful of those in their units who may have a different faith than the majority.