All I want is an explanation.

[9muckraker7]

Good post Eamonn.

[FScouter]

The membership of BSA believes "... that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God ...". Thus, any membership policy that supports that belief is good and right for BSA. Your unhappiness about it doesn't make the policy wrong. Likewise, your non-belief doesn't make you wrong either. You are perfectly free to non-believe to your heart's content. And BSA is not going to try to change any of YOUR beliefs or non-beliefs.

 

I'm always amazed when someone tries to force his way into an organization with values and ideals he doesn't believe in. BSA is not going to toss out one of its core values because one or a few people don't like it.

[packsaddle]

Eamonn, very interesting and informative.

[mhager]

evmori,

 

If you believe that religious discrimination is not immoral, that it is a good activity for groups and individuals to engage in, then further discussion would be pointless.

 

On a personal level, I am stunned that any person who has been so involved with Scouting and the lessons it imparts could make such a statement.

[EagleInKY]

E-Man! Great Post!

[mhager]

Fscouter,

 

I do believe in the values of Scouting. I do not believe that those values include religious discrimination. Do you?

 

The point I am trying to make is that the idea that an Atheist cannot be reverent, cannot do "Duty to God" by simply ignoring religion and letting others believe what they will, and be a moral leader and good example is simply wrong.

 

It seems that many of the replies I am getting are merely saying "That's the rule" without addressing why the rule was made or how the rule benefits Scouting. I have yet to hear any good reasons for either of those two things.

[dan]

mhager

Lets say you are sitting around the campfire with a group of scouts, after a long day of hiking lets say at Philmont, the discussion turns to God. One of the scouts ask you what you think about God. How would you answer this question?

 

 

[9muckraker7]

What reason would suffice? I think this topic has already been exhausted, and several valid explanations have already been offered. No one in here has tried to provide any reason which would be in direct contradiction of the BSA or its policies. Perhaps this requires a higher level of understanding, one that we are not capable of achieving simply by looking at everything so objectively.

[acco40]

"The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life - what he acts upon, and knows of life, and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not." - Baden-Powell quoting Carlyle.

 

"There is no teaching to compare with example." -Baden-Powell

 

Now Eamon, I tend to agree with Sir Robert. I just wish our National Council would put more emphasis on actions and not thoughts when deciding who may or may not become members of this fine world wide organization.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[9muckraker7]

I believe it is LORD Robert.

[acco40]

Ah, yes - Lord Robert or more specifically - Lord Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell of Gilwell.

[Eagledad]

>>I do believe in the values of Scouting. I do not believe that those values include religious discrimination

[mhager]

Dan,

 

A good question. I have two answers. First, I am quite knowledgable concerning religion. The amount study needed to reach my beliefs was extensive. I would be more then capable of steering such a conversation to what the Scout thinks and could discuss it in a historical and philosophical context, be that scout Christian, Muslim, Hindu or what have you. Second, if that Scout persisted in asking about my personal beliefs, I would politely decline, directing him (hopefully) to another leader more in agreement with the boy's ideas.

 

9muckracker7,

 

No reason would suffice, of course. No such reason exists. The policy is utterly unreasonable and should be immediately abolished. Is it surprising that I have a ready answer for every protest raised? It should not be.

[9muckraker7]

What often happens when an organization changes its policies to cater to another's needs or convictions is reverse discrimination. If the BSA was forced to accept atheists as some would like, many people would be upset. The BSA would then be pressed to change its oath and omit the "duty to God" obligation, and then many other "complaints" invoking changes in the structure of the BSA would soon follow (people would argue the point of the scout law of reverence; people would argue the duty to one's country statement; people would challenge the Native American culture of the Order of the Arrow; people would argue other points of the scout law) and eventually anything "moral" in scouting would have a subtle religious connection and therefore have to be abolished.

 

The BSA had to draw a line somewhere to preserve its values, and if that line is broken once, it will be broken again and again until the BSA becomes something very much different from the principles upon which it is based.

 

I'm not saying that accepting atheism would be the wrong choice (I cannot provide a reasonable and unbiased validation if I did make such a claim), but the BSA respects the views of many other people, especially the religious organizations that sponsor local units.

[9muckraker7]

See this is the great thing about having a God to whom I can pray...there is no need to try to understand things like this because I can pray that God will decide what is right and help us all to be just in our actions and policies, and I have faith that everything will work out for the better. From my experience, having good faith and being optimistic really helps one appreciate life and be an overall better person.