All I want is an explanation.

[frank10]

mhager,

It's an odd thing about the Boy scouts that folks who do not agree with the basic ideals of the club still want in. I understand you want to be included. I do not regaurd you as bad person at all, as my bible tells me "judge not least ye be judged".

 

However, Some day I will sign my son (now 6 weeks old) up for cubs. I won't do it for the crafts, I won't do it for the field trips. I will do it because I will expect that the leadership of his pack can support what we teach in our home. No, not all of the leaders will belong to my church, but my son will know that they also belive in God. He will know that unlike at school, it's ok for him to bow his head before meals and offer up a quick prayer of thanks.

 

I don't see it as picking on you for me to want that for my son as my father wanted for me. I do wonder why so many feel that I shouldn't have a place where my family fits in.

 

That's as best as I can state it on line, I hope it helps you understand myside.

[mhager]

Wingnut,

 

I was a member of the Boy Scouts, one who acheived it's highest honor and who honors it in return. I was excluded, I never wanted to leave.

 

I can understand that you want somewhere your son can engage in his religion freely and in comfort. How will the presence of an atheist in the room prevent that? Do you think that a person being an atheist means they will automatically try to change your son's mind? Would you think the same of, for instance, a Wiccan or other non-Christian or even polytheistic adult leader?

 

I want the same for my sons (should I ever have any) as you do yours. I want them to be able to be a part of a great organization and they would have as much right to feel comfortable with their beliefs as your sons.

 

It isn't picking on me that is the problem. I am using myself as an example. The problem is excluding an entire class of people because they do not agree with the majority. How is that in keeping with the ideals of Scouting?

 

You say that you wonder why people don't want you to have a place where your family fits in. Perhaps someone out there wants that; I certainly do not and never said so. My family also deserves a place where they can fit in, and why can that not be in the Boy Scouts? To feel that you belong, does everyone around you have to agree with you?

 

[evmori]

mhager,

Were you an atheist when you were a Scout and earned your Eagle?

 

The BSA is a private organization that has membership requirements. Since you don't meet those requirements, you can't be a member.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ehcalum]

An Eagle Scout myself, congrats mhagar. I think the police on Religious discrimination is not a good policy. Yes the BSA is a private club and can such make its own laws, membership requirements, ect. However, I believe the BSA teaches a youth and adult leaders to be model citizens: helpful to all, nonjudgemental, law abiding ect. Thus, by enforcing a policy of discrimination they are going against the very ideals that they are trying to teach boys. As was mentioned eariler the Bible says judge not least ye be judged yourselves, why discriminate?

 

I have a disability, I'm legally deaf with a hearing loss of 68%, yet I do not say i am handicapped. I have been discriminated many times and understand what mhager is going through. If you look at the Scouts today you will notice the formation of Disabled Specific Units as well as a still generally segergated organization. I'm not trying to start a flame war pr anything here, just making observations. I just think that before people start blaming others for problems and wrong doing, look at yourselvs and see what you can cange about yourself. Then maybe one day we all woun't have to worry about discrimination, bigorty, ect because people have changed and becoming accepting and tollerant of others unlike themselves.

[Hunt]

mhager, the bottom line here is that you'd like to belong to a religious organization, but you don't want to be religious. If you wanted to join my church, you'd have to make a profession of faith--since you wouldn't be willing to do that, you can't join. I guess that's discrimination. You may not like BSA's position on this, but it has been the position of the organization from the very beginning. Some people would like the policy to change, others would not.

Here's the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle: "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership." You disagree with this principle, and would like to see BSA drop it. Unfortunately for you, BSA gets to decide what its own principles are. To be frank with you, I expect to see BSA to change its position on gay leaders long, long before it drops the religion requirement. So, it seems to me you have three choices: (1) Accept that you and BSA have parted ways on an issue that matters to both of you, and use what you learned as a Scout to help you serve in other areas, (2) Become a crusader against BSA's policy, or (3) Re-examine your religious views. Good luck to you in making your choice.

[ehcalum]

from the Merriam-Websters Dictionary: Main Entry: religious

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances

3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : FERVENT, ZEALOUS

- religiously adverb

- religiousness noun

 

So according to that defination, does that make athesim a religion?

[Trevorum]

Hunt, BSA is NOT a "religious organization". It has membership requirements, yes, and emphasizes reverence, but religion is NOT part of the program.

[Trevorum]

BSA does NOT define God as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity of the Old Testament. "The BSA does not interpret God or religion. That is the role of the Scout's family and religious leaders." (BSA Position Statement 6/24/91)

 

So, Roosters' fellow who defines God "as a tree" is perfectly welcome in BSA, along with those who think God is the Milky Way and even those who think God is undefinable.

 

[Hunt]

Well, BSA has certainly claimed to be a religious organization in the courts, but that's really a quibble. The bottom line is that BSA has a long-standing religious principle and religious membership requirements. BSA did not turn its back on mhager; rather, he rejected BSA's principles.

Also, atheism is not a religion. It is a belief that there is no ultimate reality. It is a DENIAL that religion is real. In any case, BSA's statement of religious principle could not be affirmed by an atheist, even if he felt that atheism is a "religion," so it's a moot point.

[Region 7 Voyageur]

mhager,

 

You state that you were awarded the Eagle Rank in 1986. On your Eagle application you signed a statement saying that everything on the application is true and correct. With that application you had to show evidence of living the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. The Scout Oath says that you will do your best to do your duty to God. The Scout Law says that a Scout is Reverent. Were you truthful when you signed your Eagle application? Or, have you become an atheist since you were awarded the Eagle rank?

 

If you were an atheist as a youth then you lied on your Eagle application. If you have become an atheist as an adult then it is you that has changed and turned your back on Scouting.

 

[Trevorum]

Of course atheism is not a religion - it's a belief but is not a religion. (Religions are integrated systems composed of: theology; ritual; and ethical rules.)

 

In my experience, most self-proclaimed atheists are intellectually lazy. They say what they don't believe in, but don't make the effort to discover what they do believe in.

 

Spritual self-discovery is open to everyone.

[mhager]

evmori says, "The BSA is a private organization that has membership requirements. Since you don't meet those requirements, you can't be a member. "

 

I am aware of that rather simplistic stance, evmori. I am questioning the rationality of the rule. Do you understand that rule are not absolutes and can, when detrimental, be changed?

 

This discrimination rule is detrimental to the BSA and should be changed.

[SemperParatus]

How is it detrimental to the BSA? It may be keeping you out (and others with a similar view), but I suspect it may be keeping many more young people in.

 

If the BSA changed its policy on atheists (and homosexuals), the likelihood is that membership will decline, as many of the church-sponsored units and its members pull out. Serving fewer youth is not 'good policy'.

[FScouter]

The BSA requirement that individuals recognize a personal obligation to God is part of what makes this a great organization. You can call it "discrimination" if you want, but you're not fooling anyone. You have made your personal decision to exclude yourself from Scouting.

[mhager]

Rather then reply to each poster individually, I have opted to do it in one missive. Reading the replies to my posts, it seems that four general points are being made:

 

1. That's the rule, live with it.

 

Well, as I said to evmori, bad rules need to be changed and discrimination against Atheists is a bad rule.

 

2. One theme that recurred was that the BSA has been constant and I have changed.

 

That is correct, I have grown in wisdom and knowledge. I have made my decisions about how the world is and am happy with them. Part of that growing in wisdom has made it plain to me that religious discrimination is wrong, whatever reason it is done for and by whatever organization is doing it, even if that organization can do so legally. Since when has legal meant the same thing as moral?

 

I hold all the important values of Scouting dear. I firmly believe that each Scout must interpert religion for himself. That was one of the values I was taught in my Troop, and in other places. Scouting itself only believes this up to a point. Interpert religion as you will, but come a conclusion we like or you're out. That is truly sad. When the interpertation of one aspect of Scouting's code, in it's current interpertation, is clearly in conflict with many others (tolerance, brotherhood, acceptance of differences, etc.) then perhaps it is time to look at that policy.

 

3. I was asked if I lied on my Eagle application.

 

That is an insulting question which I am tempted to treat with the disdain it deserves, but I will answer. No, I had not made the fundamental realizations that led me to reject religion in 1986. If I had, I would have clearly stated so.

 

The Scouting policy was quoted to me, and I will in return quote a small part of it back.

 

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God..."

 

This policy is, from it's very first line, wrong in fact. Unless one necessarily includes religion as a quality for being the best kind of citizen for no reason other then it's own sake rather then it's actual effect (which is unreasonable) this makes no sense when looked at with an understanding of facts. How should one try and determine if a given subset of society is generally one with positive effect? Well, one might look at the rate of incarceration. The fact is that Atheists commit fewer crimes on the average then theists. Education levels, perhaps? Wouldn't a group concerned with the benefits it can provide youth want the best educated men to help lead it? Atheists are, on average, better educated then Theists. Is concern for the general good something desirable? I would think so. Atheists give to charity causes at a slightly higher rate then Theists. Is civic responsibility something one would want in a member? Atheists vote at a higher rate then theists. I can cite reliable sources for all of the above on request.

 

I am hearing a lot of "That's the rule" but no comment on why it is the rule or why it is good for Scouting. Why is it?