All I want is an explanation.

[mhager]

I am a former Scout. I received my Eagle in 1986 from Troop 27, Prestonsburg Ky. I was a Brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Kawida lodge. While a member of that troop, I served as Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader and Junior Assistant Scoutmaster.

 

I am gainfully employed, have no criminal record, use no drugs and do not abuse alcohol. I am fit and still an avid and( I perhaps flatter myself) capable outdoorsman.

 

I love the BSA. I treasure the memories of my active membership and greatly value all I learned, both practical skills and moral lessons.

 

Now, what I would like an explanation of is precisely why this organization that I have gained so much from would deny me the privilege of giving back to it because they disagree with my positions on religion? Why has the BSA turned it's back on me?

 

I have tried for a real response from both my local and the national councils but have received no satisfactory answer. So, I come here to a forum of what I suppose to be the rank and file membership and leadership of Scouting and ask for an explanation. Tell me what you all think.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

So what are your positions on religion?

[mhager]

In what way is that relevant? More accurately, in what way should that be relevant? I understand that it is the policy of the BSA to engage in religious discrimination. I understand that, as nonsensical as that position is, it is the right of the BSA to hold it.

 

What I am curious to hear is if the members of this forum agree that it is in Scouting's best interest to prevent adult leadership by a person with experience, good moral values, and a desire to help the program and if so, why?

 

If you are assuming that I am an atheist, you are correct but, again, what exactly about my beliefs is so offensive to Scouting? I hope that no one here will trot out the old, discredited notion that atheism somehow equals immorality or something similar. I have no desire to spread my beliefs and would not try to do so, just as I would expect a Roman Catholic Scoutmaster to refrain from trying to convert a Baptist Scout to Catholicism.

 

The idea that I do not uphold the Law is irrelevant. I am reverent about many things; the freedoms enumerated in the Bill of Rights for instance. I realize that duty to god is part of the oath, but does not the oath allow each Scout to interpert their duty to God in light of their personal beliefs? Is it at all relevant that I interpert my duty to God to go only so far as not interfering with other's belief in him?

[Trevorum]

mhager, it pains me deeply knowing that our beloved BSA so ill treats Eagle Scouts.

 

IMO, BSA's policy is rooted in a traditional religious intolerance that equated "godlessness" with "immorality". This is patently untrue, as may be demonstrated by your own case. Nonetheless, it is policy and BSA cannot stand to lose face (or, more importantly, membership) by recanting.

[SemperParatus]

Welcome to the forum. Here is an answer -

 

God has been a part of the BSA formula for 94 years now. It has only been over the past ten years that this has become an issue - driven largely by strident activists from the atheist community. The BSA national response to legal action is based on (i) this long history of recognition of a supreme being, (ii) its line in the sand as to its status as a 'private organization', and (iii) probably most importantly, it constituency (members) which is influenced heavily by the LDS and Catholic churches which sponsor a large percentage of units.

 

 

[mhager]

I thank you for your commiseration, Trevorum, and I agree with your reasoning as to the root cause of the discrimination.

 

I should point out that my concern is for Scouting. How many good leaders and great young men of character and ability are being denied Scouting's rich experience because they don't agree with the religious stance of the majority?

 

I simply do not understand how Scouting can ignore one of the most closely and dearly held American ideals, one so important that when we as a nation decided to list the most important freedoms, it was first.

[OldGreyEagle]

Seeing as how Baden-Powell saw a strong religious conviction as an important cornerstone in a boys life, I don't see it as an BSA issue or an American issue, I see it as a private organization being true to its founders ideals in a world where organizations are expected to change core values as society changes.

[Trevorum]

Semper, you are right (as always!) insofar as your answer goes. However, I would further venture that until fairly recently, there was no religious "litmus" test for membership and that atheists were Scouts and Scouters all along, they just weren't confronted and required to sign an affidavit. Now however, as the country increasingly polarizes itself along so many different dimensions, the issue of Godlessness has become writ into BSA policy.

[mhager]

I understand that the BSA is adamant about remaining a private organization. I understand that religion has long been acknowledged as important by Scouting.

 

However, as any reasonable person knows, that a thing has been done in the past or that it has been done by many people, is not necessarily a reason to continue to do it and is certainly not a reason to carefully examine even a time honored practice.

 

In any case, I am focusing on the present. I didn't ask why the policy was put in effect. I asked if the members of the forum feel that it is a good policy as it is applied. I do not and as a specific example, I use myself. I am all the things I have claimed I am. I am everything that any youth organization could want in an adult volunteer, except for the fact that my religious stance is not that of the majority of that group.

 

So, I ask, is that a good policy? Why is it a good for Scouting that I be kept from involvement in it?

 

 

 

[eisely]

Well said OGE. It is unfortunate that some are excluded, but the BSA statement of religious principle has nothing to do with the First Amendment. If any applicant or member cannot subscribe to that minimalist statement then they will have to find another organization. Try "Spiral Scouts".

[mhager]

Baden-Powell also wrote a lengthy diatribe in the first edition of the Boy Scout manual detailing the moral wrongness and medical dangers of masturbation. Do you advocate such a stance, even considering that modern medical science has shown him to be wrong? Simply saying that Baden-Powell said so is no reason to hold to anything. He is but a man.

 

In any case, I acknowledge that the policy of religious exists and that it is the right of the BSA to hold it, but I again ask, do the members of this forum think it is a good policy?

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

mhager, I don't think it's a good policy (speaking as someone who was an atheist cub scout about 38 years ago).

 

If you want to do something about it, trying finding a nearby Scout unit from this list:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/packtroop/index.html

These are Packs and Troops chartered by government agencies, and government agencies can't practice religious discrimination, so if you are refused membership, you'll have grounds for a discrimination lawsuit against both the govenment agency and the Boy Scouts. The government can't run private clubs that have religious requirements for membership.

 

If it seems drastic, keep in mind that the only times the Boy Scouts have opened any of their programs to atheists have been the result of legal issues raised over government agencies practicing discrimination on the BSA's behalf.

[mhager]

While I disagree strongly with the BSA's current policy of religious discrimination, I have no desire at this time to engage in legal activity. My posting here is merely a matter of curiosity. I simply want to see if this group, which I assume is a decent cross section of Scouting (leaning heavily towards adult leadership) agrees that this is a good idea.

 

Good leaders and good boys are being kept out by this policy. I was wondering how anyone can see that as positive.

[sst3rd]

mhager,

 

Yeah, it's a good idea. But it's more than just an idea. It's an ideal. As a youth member, we may not have our code (call it what you want) resolved, so in the hindsight of adulthood, we now feel the need to second guess.

Yeah, it's a good idea.

 

sst3rd

[mhager]

sst3rd,

 

You say not once but twice that you think the religious discrimination policy is a good one so I gather that you strongly support it.

 

What I am unclear on is your reason for your support. You say that it is not an idea but an ideal. What exactly is the ideal you refer to? Religion in and of itself? Is zealous adherence to the precepts of a religion on the part of each Scout the ideal you propose? I would like to respectfully request a further explanation of this.

 

You go on to say, "As a youth member, we may not have our code (call it what you want) resolved, so in the hindsight of adulthood, we now feel the need to second guess." I am afraid I don't completely follow this either. Are you talking about how I (and others who may be in the same position I am) may have changed my views since the days of my active membership or are you talking about current youth whose beliefs are being formed?

 

The second of those two options disturbs me a great deal, but I will await a clarification of what you mean before I venture a comment on it.

 

You have responded to one of my questions, but I also have two others that I think are important for everyone who loves Scouting to consider very carefully.

 

What is it about me and people like me that makes us unsuited to be involved in Scouting?

 

How is it good for the organization to keep out adults and young men, preventing them from partaking in the great joys and benefits of Scouting? Why is it right to keep these young men from those benefits based on their choices about religion?

 

I have asked these several times, yet have seen no answers from those who support the discrimination policy.