Religious Tolerance (or not)

[Trevorum]

"I wonder what are they afraid will happen."

 

Barry, I am afraid that the Hindu Scout or the Jewish Scout will eventually get tired of being treated like they didn't count and will quit Scouts.

 

No one is worried about a service "converting" anybody. It is a matter of respect. How would you feel if every Scout service you attended named Zeus as the Supreme God? You wouldn't change your beliefs, certainly, but it would get tiresome. Wouldn't it be better to have a service which could be meaningful to everyone?

[Eagledad]

>>out of respect to people with differing (and especially minority) viewpoints>I also don't think it's enough to give the minority Scout his turn to offer a prayer invoking his own deity--you're still emphasizing his position as a minority

[acco40]

Barry - I don't think anyone, I know I don't, feels we need to keep our differences bottled up. Your Eskimo {or Inuit } example is a great example of celebrating our diversity. I love to learn about the differences and similarities in each others customs, foods, dress, religions, etc. It is fascinating.

 

But I would not want to witness a lamb being slaughtered at one of our COHs as a sign of reverence. I don't care if a particular religion "promotes" that way of thinking. I was raised a Christian (Presbyterian) and seeing a cross is a reminder of my faith. However, the sight of a crucifix still gives me the willies. I don't feel comforted by it, I see pain, suffering, torture and agony. Did Jesus question his faith upon the cross? I don't want to debate that issue in this forum but let's just say a crucifix "sighting" doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy. It is not something I want to see in my hospital room. For others, especially those raised in the Catholic faith, my response may seem quixotic.

 

Yes we should celebrate our diversity but we should also be sensitive and respectful to others. Recently, a public school in Michigan was teaching middle school (maybe it was high school I forget) reproductive health. As part of their science project, the students were asked to make anatomical models of genitalia (penises, vaginas, etc.). In our culture, that makes many very squeamish. Some students and many parents complained vehemently. When should individuals bow to the societal pressures of the majority? The minority? Those are tough questions. My take is that some effort not to offend others should be made. As Scouts, we have agreed to a declaration of religious principle - an obligation to God (not Buddha, not Jesus, etc.). As such, why have prayers with references to those individuals?

 

Watching the boys in a patrol make out meals for an outing is an educational experience. Sometimes the majority forces its will on the minority - we don't care if Johnny doesn't like spaghetti - we are having it anyway! Sometimes they use the "okay, we like spaghetti so we will have it Saturday night but Johnny, since you don't like it you can pick Saturday's lunch and Sunday's breakfast." Sometimes the thought process goes - "okay, Johnny doesn't like spaghetti, so let's try and find a meal that everyone can agree on." I prefer the latter approach, but it is not always taken. And yes, if the first approach is always taken, as someone suggested, Johnny may not remain a member of that patrol very long.

 

That is why I don't like the "Barry" prayer this week, "acco40" prayer the next and then the "Rooster" prayer the next week. Why not have a prayer all can agree on? Is it a big issue to me? Not really, but I think how people approach these types of issues is a really good reflection on their individual character.

 

[Eagledad]

Well said Acco

 

You have a great writing skills that make it easy to understand your point. I wasnt talking about extreme lamb killing examples. We have to keep a level of common sense in the discussion so we can get to our viewpoints. I have never heard of a situation where a scout was offended by another scouts religious difference. I not saying it hasnt happened, but to me that is such a small acception that we shouldnt react by restricting all scouting.

 

My reply on the food allergy is more of an example that it is no less respectful to offer several options than to restrict the options. That doesnt mean if a person is truly offended, the group shouldnt also respect that. But in most cases, I would go the way of less restrictions. Not just because that is the easier solution, (to me anyway), but because I think that is the character value I want the boys to practice when they approach all diverse situations.

 

Sometimes the respectful thing to do is allow the group to do what we personally dont like. I think it would be a bit much to ask a group of people to hide a crucifix because you have a personal problem with it. You can and maybe should explain your problem, but the crucifix is pretty much a symbol everywhere. For whatever reason, I hate to watch people spitting. Yet, spitting is normal in many situations, especially sports. As a soccer coach, I just sucked it up.

 

As for the prayer of the week, well even you said it is not a big issue, I find its not an issue to most people. I believe one learns more from it than going the other way. With that said, I would say that 98% of all the prayers heard in our troop is the Philmont Prayer. It all works out. If it doesnt then you can react and bring your adult wisdom into it.

 

My main point was I view holding the boys back from expressing their difference is more harmful than what our fears are trying to prevent. I found the boys work these things out fine, maybe they should guide the adults.

 

Now if they really want to kill a lamb, well maybe that should be held until a survival campout.

 

 

Barry

 

[acco40]

Barry - your are correct, for the boys and in most practical cases, these are not issues. However, some people, including myself, like to debate these "what if" type scenarios.

 

Now from my experience, if we totally left it up to the boys no problems would exist because 99.9% of the time they have to be reminded to say grace before meals, benedictions at COHs, etc.

[OldGreyEagle]

When I see a crucifix, I see historical accuracy, a crown of thorns, nails in hand/wrist, and feet and laceration in the side. When I see a crucifix

I dont expect to feel warm and fuzzy, only to be reminded what is documented what Jesus did to save mankind because of our own weaknesses.

[Proud Eagle]

Attempts at non-sectarian prayers are bound to not be meaningful to a significant number of people. There are those who believe that to be valid prayer must come in certain forms, or be made in certain ways, or be made to a certain specific higher power. Some only believe in silent prayer. Others think you need to shot to the heavens to make certain God hears you. Others will only pray on their knees. Some think they must stand while praying. Others think only certain particular prayers are valid.

 

Then there is the simple fact that most people are really no good at coming up with a non-sectarian prayer in the first place. After all, a non-sectarian prayer is somewhat contrary to the general idea of religion. Religion is a series of practices and beliefs based on faith in some type of higher power. To make a prayer non-sectarian (meaning it doesn't respect any one or any group of sects) makes it in a way non-religious. It isn't a prayer based informed by the practices and beliefs of a faith group, instead it is a prayer based on no ones practices or beliefs, and grounded in a faith in nothing in particular.

 

So, for some, meaningful non-sectarian prayer is not possilbe. For many more, the ability to create a decent non-sectarian prayer is a completely unfamiliar things. After all, to do so requires a temporary suspension of their own religious practices.

 

 

Is it possible to create a good non-sectarian Scout's Own service? Yes.

Is it easy? No.

 

Will even the best Scout's Own service be meaningful to all people of faith? No. You simply can't please everyone at once.

 

You may be able to please most people most of the time, but you can never please all people all of the time.

 

 

 

Now, care should be taken not to bash someone over the head with your religion. Care should also be taken not to deny them the opportunity to practice their own faith. (Jewish kid and pork being a good example, though even then there is a possibility of it being impossible to accomadate someone. Some orthodox Jews maintain that you may not ever place meat in a container that has held milk, and vice-versa. If you are going to accomodate everyone, then that would mean to accomodate such a person their patrol would need to be given two new sets of cookware and utensils, and everyone in the patrol would need to learn kosher food preparation procedures, etc.)

 

Like most everything else a balance point must be found. The needs wants of the many must be balanced against the needs of the few. How exactly to do this is too complicated to determine on a national level, hince the decleration on religious principles and the oath an law. It gives you a guide, but doesn't box you into an unrealistic position. So for a troop where everyone is Christian, they may decide to pray to God in the name of Jesus. For a troop that has people of every faith under the sun, they may decide that non-sectarian is a must. For another troop, they may decide that offering everyone a chance to contribute something from their own faith is the way to go.

[Hunt]

I don't think you can say it's not about majorities and minorities--it really is. The person who is in the minority feels a pressure that it is difficult for people in the majority to understand. It's OK to learn about other faiths--but that's not the same as having a Christian prayer for six weeks, and on the seventh being allowed to offer a Jewish prayer. The Eskimo dance sounds great, but would you really want to be in a troop that constantly referred to a faith you don't share?

I also agree that you can only accomodate so far--it's one thing to avoid pork, but it would be something else to follow all kosher rules.

But not eating pork, or not eating food that you're allergic to, is not the same as not liking spaghetti. If your fellow scouts respect you, they'll never ask to you to put up pork on the menu, or the food that can harm you. So with your religious beliefs, if your fellow scouts respect you, they won't want to make you uncomfortable, and if they find that their actions are doing so, they'll understand and find a nonsectarian way of expressing themselves.

[Eagledad]

>>So with your religious beliefs, if your fellow scouts respect you, they won't want to make you uncomfortable