Religious Tolerance (or not)

[packsaddle]

I see we're getting a little 'cheeky' here. Perhaps Acco40 was thinking about a different cheek?

Anyway, I, indeed, HAVE experienced a scoutmaster attempting to push his religious beliefs on boys of different and diverse religious faiths. This was in the form of a troop activity to pursue the religious award. That idea wasn't bad in itself, except he decided that the troop would do it in HIS faith alone. When I noted that only one boy in the troop was a member of his church he became a little indignant. So I read him the DRP. That, fortunately, did the trick (thanks for the post, scoutingagain).

 

Our adults, around the campfire, do not discuss religious issues. I think we all recognize that such debate is pointless unless the point is pointless argument. Instead we devote discussion to topics in which we can find more agreement and productivity, such as politics. Believe that?

 

The solution I have long-ago adopted to solve these issues with the boys is to accept that a boy's religious development is a matter for his family. Period. I have been told in these forums that this is merely avoidance. Perhaps, but it also is neither interference in the family nor can it be viewed as proselytizing. And none of the families have ever complained about leaving private matters of faith...to them.

[Hunt]

"I will never respect a belief that claims a tree to be God or a god."

 

I agree that certain religious beliefs seem absurd to me. However...I have enough introspection to recognize that my own religious beliefs may appear absurd to those who were raised in a different culture. After all, my creed requires me to believe that a man who lived 2000 years ago was born of a virgin (because he was really God in human flesh, not just an ordinary man), that he performed various miraculous acts, and that he was physically resurrected from the dead after an ignominious execution. I am also required to accept explanations of the significance of this written by people who lived long ago. I have no problem accepting all this, but I think I should show some humility when others resist believing it.(This message has been edited by Hunt)

[EagleInKY]

Acco, you wrote "My personal preference is NOT to have a Muslim one week, a Jew the next, a Christian ... A smorgasbord of religious leaders leading prayers service with sectarian prayer is not in the best interest of Scouting IMO. If sectarian prayer or services are desired - a Catholic service, Jewish service, etc. held simultaneously a la National Jamboree is one solution but you will always get a few complaints about the religion not represented. "

 

Are we talking services or just prayers at the beginning and end of meetings? If we're just talking about prayers, then I think the person leading the prayer should be able to lead it according to his religious preference. You can do this without being very sectarian or threatening other beliefs. Now, I can see where a prayer can cross the bounds of religious tolerance. Let's say a Christian prays to turn all of the sinners in the Middle East to Christ or if a Muslim prays for a Holy Jihad to rain down on Christians. In those cases, we would definitely have an issue.

 

Now, when it comes to religious services, I agree with you. At a large event, like Jamboree, you can offer a multitude of religious services for each specific group. In fact, my dad is getting to go to the Jamboree to help with our religious group's services. (40 years of scouting, it's his first Jamboree, he's excited). But, we should always offer "Scouts Own" worship services so that people from any faith can come together and worship in an open, non-threatening, non-sectarian way.

[Trevorum]

Packsaddle and I have similar approaches. Religious instruction is a matter for the family.

 

The one time when I will discuss specifics of relgious belief with a scout is during a SM conference for his religious award. Often, these will direct the SM to discuss with the candidate his personal growth regarding particular matters of faith. These conferences are enjoyable and enlightening for me as I always get to learn something new about other faiths.

[Trevorum]

I should have added that during regular SM conferences we will discuss how the he fulfills his Duty to God and how he shows Reverence in his daily life. I strongly feel there is no right or wrong answer to these obligations, as long as the candidate can express to me what he means by reference and what is his duty. These vary widely between faiths and it would be invasive for me to tell him that, say, Duty to God means attending church services, or praying, or anything else. That's for his family.

[acco40]

Trevorum, a SM conference for his religious award? I was not aware that a SM conference was needed to earn a religious award. I know that there are many religious awards out there and I am only familiar with a few but ...

 

I won't "coach" or "mentor" or "teach" any of the Scouts (except maybe my own two sons) in our troop on religious matters but I will pose to them questions which may make them think about their beliefs. A SM conference is a good place for that.

 

EagleinKY - yeah, my "prayer service" is a somewhat confusing term. Although I consider my self a Christian, I've attended many "Scout's own" services where references to Jesus Christ are made - specifically in an opening or ending prayer. I cringe when I hear that because I don't think it is appropriate. Not a big deal on the grand scheme of things but still not necessary. When I took Woodbadge training a few years ago (we eat, we mate, we hibernate!) one of the sessions was about formulating a non-sectarian service which I thought was very good.

[Rooster7]

Although I consider my self a Christian, I've attended many "Scout's own" services where references to Jesus Christ are made - specifically in an opening or ending prayer. I cringe when I hear that because I don't think it is appropriate. Not a big deal on the grand scheme of things but still not necessary.

 

Perhaps these boys, who made you cringe, were simply following the teachings of their faith:

 

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. Matthew 10:32 & 33

 

I wonder what Jesus thinks? Do you think He cringes?

 

Sometimes children lead the way.

 

[Trevorum]

The Ad Altare Dei rquires a SM conference. Maybe others, as well.

 

I, too, thought the Woodbadge session on preparing a "Scout's Own" service was excellent. I especially appreciated the important distinction that was made between "non-sectarian" and "non-denominational". Many Scouters had not thought about this before.

[BadenP]

For Petes sake Rooster give it a rest will you. You complain I accuse you unfairly and then in your last post you do exactly that which I observe you doing all along preaching intolerance for others beliefs. I think it is you who is doing the double talk here. In a prior post you stated you are no longer affiliated with a troop and my answer to that is Thank God!

[Trevorum]

BP, this is what I meant in the very first post on this thread: to some evangelicals, being tolerant is actually wrong. They are supposed to take every opportunity to "witness" to others, even if this is unwanted or offensive. I see this as a fundamental (pun!) conflict between BSA policies (as we have here reviewed) and their faith. However, I think we should allow them the freedom to be obnoxious to others because they are honestly trying to do good. It's just so darn annoying.

[OldGreyEagle]

Awhile back our troop had two very active Chaplain Aides, and they always had a Scouts own planned for Sunday. One featured the song "Day by Day" which, as it turned out, has a tune only known by the scoutmaster and yours truly. It may be a good question if after we two sang it the rest of the troop knew the tune as well but I digress. The next January we crossed over quite a few new scouts, amoung which was Sam, a real gung ho scout and his father Sam Sr. And yes, they are Jewish. The first camp out with the first years is held and during the scouts own one of the Chaplain aides offers a prayer to Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. I didnt think a thing of it until I saw Sam Sr talking to the Scoutmaster after the service. Yikes I thought, I forgot about Sam jr and Sam Sr. Next Camp Out the Chaplain Aides were briefed and the Scouts Own reviwed and there was no problem. Just a generic prayer to the Father. Third Campout, an adult slip up occurred. The service wasnt reviewed, because the Scoutmaster felt the Chaplain's Aides understood the parameters and all was ok until the end when the same Chaplains Aide ended by saying, now in the words Jesus gave us, Our Father...

Next vignette, Sam Sr in a little more determined discussion with the scoutmaster. On the following Campout the scoutmaster didnt attend, neither did I and as you may well guess, another Jesus reference, rather innocent from what I was told, but there. Sam Jr and Sr werent heard from again. The offending Chaplain's Aide ended up leaving the troop because his mother was tired of him getting "yelled at" (no voices were raised, but his services were critisized) for mentioning Jesus. Was the troop intolerant by not better training and keeping better track of the Chaplain's Aide? Was Sam Sr intolerant and should have expected a few "slip ups" as the troop moved to a more secular "non-christian" style of service? Was Jesus happy at any of this ? (and I dont mean to offend anyone by that comment) I dont know, but I can tell you I miss Sam Jr and Sr.

[Trevorum]

OGE, your story resonates with me because we had a similar situation. So I asked my "Sam Jr." if he would be the new Chaplains Aide. It worked!

 

Also, our new Troop Chaplain is Woodbadge trained and is wonderfully inclusive.

[Rooster7]

BP,

 

For someone who claims to know Gods Word well, you sure dont like hearing it. And for someone who's trying to keep things civil, you sure go out of your way to attack my posts.

 

Trevorum,

 

I expressed an opinion to someone who claims to share a faith in Christ Jesus. I supported my opinion with Scripture, which presumably he considers to be sacred. Now, while my words may give him reason to be concerned, I fail to see how you equate them with intolerance. Are all differences of opinions concerning faith now considered a sign of intolerance?

 

[anarchist]

Religion-see below(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[anarchist]

Religion...someone once told me that more folks have died in the name of religion than any other cause...that should give anyone a reason to be cautious in such discussions...and amply demonstrate that it is ground that should be walked upon lightly... more than feelings get easily hurt.

 

Scouters have absolutely no business discussing religious subjects with Scouts unless it is about the BOY's religious requirements and only the BOY's religion...period, not the scouters. Scouter on scouter debates, while most likely acceptable, it can be so much worse than politics. The unit itself can be damaged by the results of a debate 'gone bad'. You have to weigh the risks before going far down that road...best bet is take it outside of scouting!

 

In the example EagleInKy cited, I hate to say, I am not sure the group was showing tolerance towards the lady's religion so much as accomodation to the Muslim practices. More telling was the notation that they had shown her tolerance and she should do the same...but I saw no intolerance in her example but a definite display of compassion for a person who may (or may not) have been feeling lost. I think she was very perceptive in noting that the

'drop out' catholic needed to find something that he 'needs', not what her Christian friends felt they needed...ie. to save his soul and place him on their road to salvation.

 

Coming from a family with a nearly (professed) aetheistic father and an evangelical Mother, I know a lot about tolerance...in religion anyway. Most of my evangelical friends only see a one-way street and due to their need to spread the Good News, frequently step on the 'toes' of other creeds...and sensibilities.

 

Good deeds and good works should be used to demonstrate ones values, but they do not entitle one to prosilitize! The poor/sick/weak/disposessed human beings in recent world events (as an example) need practical help, not sermons...and if, by your Christian/Muslim/Buddist/Hundu/Wicca (etc.) deeds, your faith touches someone, he or she will seek out the source of your faith and goodness...but it (your help and assistance)should never be a bribe, a thing of barter, or ....a hammer.

faith and peace!