evmori Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Merlyn, You continue to question my honesty! I stated I would stop going! And if this meant going to jail, then so be it! And if going to jail is the only other option (which I doubt it is) then I would go to jail! Without compromising my beliefs and getting the ACLU involved this would be my choice! I, unlike you, have morals. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed New Year to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 Ed, your answer of "stop going" wasn't one of the choices. And if you'd go to jail instead of fighting for your rights, that's not being moral, that's surrendering your rights without a fight. You can give up your rights if you want to be a doormat, but I won't give up mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Merlyn, My answer of "stop going" was in reference to the course run by the Muslims. I would stop going even if this means going to jail. You won't give up your rights but you expect me to give up mine? I have the same rights as you. Yet you want to stop all public institutions from chartering BSA units because the Supreme Court ruled the BSA is a private organization and has the right to set it's own membership standards that don't agree with your beliefs! Sounds like you want special rights to me! Maybe we should call them lefts! And what do you know about morals? Obviously nothing based on the statement in your last post! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed New Year to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 No Ed, YOU are the one who said you'd give up your rights. You indicated you'd go to jail instead of fighting for your rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Let's see......I committed a crime that carries jail time or a class as a penalty. I refuse the class because it goes against my beliefs so my only other option is jail. Where did I give up my rights? I have the right to appeal & would do that. And once again, Merlyn, you missed my point! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed New Year to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 Let's see......I committed a crime that carries jail time or a class as a penalty. I refuse the class because it goes against my beliefs so my only other option is jail. Where did I give up my rights? I have the right to appeal & would do that. You gave up your rights by accepting the court's imposing of the unlawful choice between your religious views and jail. Your appeal doesn't address that, it only addresses your conviction. If you want to dispute the legality of the court only offering a religious class as an alternative to jail time, that requires a lawsuit. And once again, Merlyn, you missed my point! Well, you don't seem very good at explaining your point. For example, after I gave examples of the ACLU litigating against court-ordered religion-based program attendance, you wrote this: Once again the ACLU stomps all over the right of religious freedom! Now, exactly WHOSE religious rights did the ACLU stomp all over? They were defending various people who did NOT want to take part in court-ordered programs that violated their religious views, so whose rights are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 See, Merlyn, this is where you & I differ. If I do the crime I will do the time! You apparently won't! My point as stated before: You want to stop all public institutions from chartering BSA units because the Supreme Court ruled the BSA is a private organization and has the right to set it's own membership standards that don't agree with your beliefs! Sounds like you want special rights to me! Maybe we should call them lefts! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed New Year to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 Ed, you don't even understand the issues. And you neglected to answer my question about this statement of yours: Once again the ACLU stomps all over the right of religious freedom! Now, exactly WHOSE religious rights did the ACLU stomp all over? They were defending various people who did NOT want to take part in court-ordered programs that violated their religious views, so whose rights are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9gold-scout Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Some day (soon) the American people will no longer accept unelected judges changing our way of life; they will no longer be able tell good people they are wrong. If the ACLU continues to try and force God and the BSA out of America the backlash will put the ACLU on the junkheap of history. The USA needs the BSA and will do just fine without the ACLU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 A person committed a crime. The judge gives them the option of jail time or a course. This person doesn't like the course because it is taught by Muslims who demand those in the course to follow their ways. So the person who committed the crime opts for the jail time! Did the judge have to give this person an option? I doubt it! The judge could have just given them the jail time! No rights were stomped on until the ACLU got involved! A crime was committed! Why should the criminal have an option as to what their punishment should be? You continue to state I don't understand the issues yet you refuse to address the real issue. The Supreme Court rule the BSA could set it's own membership standards and you & the ACLU want to persecute the BSA for doing exactly that because it flies in the face of your misguided beliefs! Keep trying. If this was the former USSR, you might have a chance! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed New Year to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Ed, judges can give alternatives to jail, but those alternatives must be constitutional; they can't exclusively offer alternatives that only allow certain religious views. They CAN offer it as one of several similar alternatives if some of these alternatives are religiously neutral. As I keep pointing out, you just don't understand that. And, of course, you don't understand that military bases and public schools can't sponsor private, discriminatory groups like Boy Scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 And the law say those alternatives must be constitutional where? I understand fine, Merlyn. Your constant stating I don't understand when you can't defend you bias is getting old. I don't think you understand. We as Americans are entitled to religious freedom not freedom from religion. You and you ilk want to eliminate God from public life. That will not happen. The citizens of the USA will not let that happen. You are just torked that the BSA is legally allowed to not grant membership to atheists! Too bad so sad! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed New Year to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Ed, all court actions have to pass constitutional muster, and if you had bothered to read any of the cases cited, you might have accidentally learned that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWScouter Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Ed, You accept that the courts say we can set our membership requirements, but you refuse to understand or accept that by doing so in the way we have, there are consequences, The federal government and other government bodies can not discrimination on matters of religion and any activity or group that they sponsor, own, run cannot discriminate on the basis of religion or lack of one. The courts have consistently ruled that way. So the government may it be the military or local fire department cannot sponsor (charter) a unit. It though may not deny access to facilities that it offers to other groups to any group. Why do you think the BSA split off the Explorers into Learning for Life, because those Fire and Police units were in danger of being abolished unless the BSA changed it rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog96732 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Hello All, First off I would like to wish everyone a Happy Holiday Season. Now as to what I have to say and I hope I do not get edited. To Merlyn why are you even here on this Forum? You claim that given the chance you would kill Scouting or not, I'm not to too sure on your position on Scouting. But being an Atheist you are obviously you are not a member of Scouting. So back to my question why are you even here on this forum? Is this forum not here to aid Scouters with some problems that they maybe encountering or to get some useful ideas? All the posts that you have made presently made are about your agenda or your own personal crusade against Scouting. Scouting is not about those personal agendas, its about helping youth being better people. Regardless of what god they worship or don't in the case of Atheist's. I for one believe that all should be included. But here in is where my personal believes come in to play. Leave the Scout oath the same just for those that don't believe in God don't say "God" just say Country. But Merlyn I for one would like to ask you to please stop posting here. You are not helping anyone by being here. You are only causing trouble, and upsetting a lot of people. This by no means is a threat this is just a simple request. As the old saying goes "If you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all." Scouting is a wonderful thing that I'm sure will out last the unjust barrage from the ACLU and other groups that are hell bent on destroying it. Merlyn may I ask why do you hate Scouting so much? Did someone wrong you in your life while you were a Cub Scout and your leader didn't help? I just want to get an idea on why you hate Scouting so much. Merlyn thank you so much for taking the time to read my post. And my God bless you even if you don't want or believe in his help. Aloha, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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