article: Scout's honor

[acco40]

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that...."

 

How does one interpret the above? {That is a rhetorical question people.)

 

Does it mean a few grand poobahs on the national council? The majority of members on the BSA? The BSA lawyer(s) position?

 

Just like the difference between practicing Catholics and the "Church", there are differences. Now I'm sure the words "hypocrisy", "lies", etc. will be bandied about but in reality, the position of the BSA and all of its members don't march in lockstep.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Trevorum]

ItsTrailDay,

 

An excellent question. This is the official BSA position: "... the BSA does not define or interpret God." (BSA Position Statement, 6/6/91)

 

Also, see the following:

 

Q. Some people maintain that God is a tree, a rock or a stream. Would a person believing such be eligible to be a member of Scouting?

 

A. The BSA does not seek to interpret God or religion. The Scout Oath states a requiremen

[Trevorum]

... requirement for a Scout to observe a duty to God, and the Scout Law requires a Scout to be reverent. Again, interpretation is the responsibility of the Scout, his parents and religious leaders." (Questions and Answers, Duty to God, 6/7/91)

 

This would indicate that BSA does not require a belief in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God, or even a personified deity, leaving the definition of "God" up to the Scout and his

[Trevorum]

... family.

 

 

(I apologize for the truncated posts. It's my computer, not me!)

[berkshirescouter]

"...leaving the definition of "God" up to the Scout and his family."

So this being said and subsituting 'Moral Code' for God, does this make anyone with a belief in any moral code an acceptable BSA member?

[cfs4539]

I have read this article with great interest and I am somewhat perplexed and amazed that anyone can argue that BSA should not be allowed in a "public" school without first attacking the government itself. I must admit up front that I am not as well schooled in the issues of seperation of church and state as I should be, but it only makes sense that if the government or government funded programs are to be totally seperate from any organized religion, then "In God We Trust" should be eliminated from our currency.

 

In my personal opinion, groups like the ACLU will only tackle others they feel they have a chance of beating. I guess the entire US government is too big a task. But let's get back to scouting.

 

I went to a public school through the 12th grade. I began in Cub Scouts when I was first elgible and continued with scouting until age 17. I can't tell you who the CO was for the pack or troop, but I can tell you that we met every week in a public school. Of course, that was back when one could still say the Pledge of Alligance" and a meal time prayer and not be in court defending the right to do so the next week.

 

I spent two years working on staff at a BSA summer camp and did a trek to Philmont. To explain to someone who doesn't believe in God that Boy Scouts kept me out of trouble and on the right path most of the time, BECAUSE of all of the points of the Scout Law, would be impossible, and quite frankly, a waste of my time. But, after having stood atop Baldy and taken in that magnificant view, there is no doubt there is a God and He has a special place for scout's, scouters, and all the volunteers that make BSA possible.

 

Now, I'm quite sure this arguement will go on and on. I'm upset that my rights are being violated by telling me that because I believe in God and I too pay taxes, that my money can't be used to support something so wonderful. It is a sad day when it is OK for the ACLU to support an attack on BSA, but you don't hear a word when an ACLU supporter makes racial remarks towards the Secretary of State?

 

I guess I will just go on as a Cubmaster and Unit Commissioner (different districts of course) and continue to "preach" the good in scouting, and let the time wasters sort out the rest.

[Eagledad]

>>I have read this article with great interest and I am somewhat perplexed and amazed that anyone can argue that BSA should not be allowed in a "public" school without first attacking the government itself.

[Trevorum]

ItsTrailDay,

 

Your question is a set-up in that "God" and "moral code" are not equivalent and may not be substituted for each other in BSA policy statements.

 

It's true that the two concepts are closely related. They are two of the three key elements of religion, the third being a system of ritualized behaviors which serve to bind theology to the moral code and vice-versa. "God" is one element in theology - most religions posit a god(s) in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic sense but not all; Buddhism and Taoism are prime examples.

 

For this reason (I surmise), the policy-wonks in Irving have wisely refrained from trying to define "God", recognizing that America contains a diversity of religions which weave together theology, moral code, and ritual in different tapestries.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

cfs4539 writes:

I have read this article with great interest and I am somewhat perplexed and amazed that anyone can argue that BSA should not be allowed in a "public" school without first attacking the government itself.

 

I'm perplexed myself; what article are you referring to, which argues that the BSA should not be allowed in a public school? The one at the start of this thread is about someone deciding not to give the BSA a donation.

 

Eagledad, you don't seem to understand that I'm against the government practicing religious discrimination, particularly against atheists. Every government charter partner of a discriminatory BSA unit is doing just that.

 

 

[evmori]

Merlyn,

You are treading on my 1st Amendment right to religious expression and freedom of speech by your antics! But I guess that's OK because you have the ACLU on your side.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, you are entirely free to exercise your first amendment rights by writing anything you want and demonstrating to the world that you have no idea what first amendment rights are.

[berkshirescouter]

Trevorum

 

"For this reason (I surmise), the policy-wonks in Irving have wisely refrained from trying to define "God", recognizing that America contains a diversity of religions which weave together theology, moral code, and ritual in different tapestries"

 

From this can I logically deduce that only 2 of 3 criteria would make a philosophy a religion?

If an atheist with a moral code went about ritually denouncing theists would he be practicing a religion?

 

[Trevorum]

From this can I logically deduce that only 2 of 3 criteria would make a philosophy a religion?

 

No, all three key elements are present in religion. However, different faiths offer different mixes of the three. Some emphasize ritual more than others; some emphasize theology over moral code or ritual; others emphasize morality over theology and ritual. Any system which does not have all three is not classified as a religion.

 

Of course, you may have a different perspective on the subject.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

PORT ORCHARD, Washington (AP) -- Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert has earned 37 merit badges, worked more than 1,000 hours of community service and helps lead a Boy Scout troop in his hometown.

But the 19-year-old has another distinction that may lead to his removal from the Boy Scouts: He's an atheist.

Last week, Lambert was given roughly a week by the Boy Scouts' regional executive to declare belief in a supreme being and comply with Boy Scout policy, or quit the Scouts.

The official and Lambert were to talk again this week regarding Lambert's answer.

"We've asked him to search his heart, to confer with family members, to give this great thought," Brad Farmer, the Scout executive of the Chief Seattle Council of the Boy Scouts, told The Sun of Bremerton.

"If he says he's an avowed atheist, he does not meet the standards of membership."

On membership applications, Boy Scouts and adult leaders must say they recognize some higher power, not necessarily religious. "Mother Nature would be acceptable," Farmer said.

As a private organization, the Boy Scouts are permitted to exclude certain people from membership. The organization bans gays and atheists.

Lambert, who has been a Scout since he was 9, said he won't profess a belief he doesn't feel, saying it amounts to a lie. "I wouldn't be a good Scout then, would I?"

The issue arose about three weeks ago when Lambert got into an argument with a Scout leader at a Boy Scout leadership training seminar over whether atheists should be expelled from the organization. Farmer's office soon contacted him to talk about his nonbelief.

Lambert disclosed his atheism to Scout leaders overseeing his Eagle Scout application last year, but still received the award.

The issue has surfaced before. In 1998, 16-year-old twins Michael and William Randall, who refused to take an oath to God, were awarded Eagle badges after a seven-year legal fight with the Orange County, California, council.

 

Can someone fill me in on the results of this Orange County case and the status of the Lambert case?

 

Thanks,

FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[cfs4539]

Merlyn you are correct. This whole topic started as a decision as to whether or not to make a donation to the BSA, but it didn't end there. Many more items of discussion were brought to light. Notably, your desperate attempt to get others to follow your athiest ways. All of this discussion and banter back and forth would have been avoided if you would have just quietly done what you were going to do no matter what responses came from this discussion. That is....don't make the donation!! It is my personal opinion that you have the right to believe (or not believe) whatever you want. You even have the right to profess to anyone who will listen. What you don't have the right to do is bash something you obvioulsy don't understand. My tax dollars pay for many, many, many, government programs that I don't support, but those programs are not detrimental to my personal health and well being or that of my family. Just as I can't imagine that a scout meeting in a public school, or a camp out at a public lake really is something you lose sleep over. Bottom line, do what you feel is right for you...like don't make the donation...and let those who have different beliefs exist as you are allowed to exist.

 

I'm sure you will find many points to argue, but just as I won't change your mind, you won't change mine. The only difference is I didn't have to hire an attorney to support my cause until I was forced to do so by someone who, just because they are in the minority, but have the same access as the majority, feels slighted and can't stand on his own.