article: Scout's honor

[evmori]

So, Merlyn, you want the BSA to compromise their values but you refuse to compromise yours? Sounds like you want your cake & eat it, too!

 

Let's see. A public school receives public funding therefore can't charter a BSA unit because the BSA has a membership requirement that a member must believe in God and therefore discriminates. OK. Then there are religious based colleges who receive public funding and students are eligible to receive federal & state student loans & grants. Yet, that's OK! Sounds like a double standard!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[CubsRgr8]

I checked out the S4A link Merlyn posted and found it isn't accurate. For example, University School of Milwaukee is not a public school, it is a very private school (http://www.usm.k12.wi.us/). This type of sloppy record keeping by S4A certainly causes me to question the accuracy of what they post, and the integrity of their motives.

 

Looking around a bit, here's a direct quote from their website I find highly informative.

 

On the use of school facilities: Ask the Scout units themselves where they stand on discrimination; urge them to adopt a statement on inclusiveness. Accept the Scout unit's declaration at face value. Do not assume they believe or follow the BSA practice. If the individual Scout unit does discriminate, or if the Scout unit will not adopt a nondiscriminatory policy, or if the facility will be used by the local Scout Council's which does discriminate, then you are justified in denying use of the facilities.

 

This statement is, of course, completely wrong. A school district cannot deny use of facilities to BSA for practicing constitutionally protected (and therefore 110% LEGAL) discrimination. I urge Merlyn to avoid associating with S4A, it only weakens his argument.

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

CubsRgr8 writes:

I checked out the S4A link Merlyn posted and found it isn't accurate. For example, University School of Milwaukee is not a public school, it is a very private school (http://www.usm.k12.wi.us/). This type of sloppy record keeping by S4A certainly causes me to question the accuracy of what they post, and the integrity of their motives.

 

If you'd read the cover page, you'll notice it says "NOTE: these lists were generated by computer and corrected by hand, so a few of the charters listed may actually be private schools or groups. Please send us any corrections, additions, or deletions."

 

It certainly isn't obvious that University School of Milwaukee is a private school, and no, I'm not going to check 8,200 schools myself. I have deleted those entries. If you find any others that shouldn't be on the list, please let me know and I'll delete them, too.

 

And it hasn't been tested in courts whether a school that consistently applies a nondiscrimation policy to ALL outside groups can or can't exclude Boy Scouts by treating them the same as any other outside group. Schools can allow all outside groups, they can exclude all outside groups, but the case of a consistently applied nondiscrimination requirement to all outside groups hasn't come up that I'm aware of, though the recent decision to allow schools to bar military recruiters is pretty close.

[evmori]

Sounds like this list of schools S4A has is not very accurate! I know if I was putting together a list of schools that violate something, I would want to be accurate! Guess accuracy is tossed by the wayside in order to bash the BSA!

 

Now that's the American way!

 

Just checked S4A PA list & found at least 3 schools that are private! Probably more!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Which ones, Ed? I'll take them off if you'll tell me and I verify that they're private schools.

[acco40]

It is very hard to be absolute in the real world.

 

Merlyn, consider this - the Government is at fault for sponsoring BSA units so why not spend your efforts trying to "kill" the Government and not the BSA?

 

In the "non-Jewish" organization I would have to weigh in on does the good out-weigh the bad. We are all non-perfect - something all Christians and certainly most atheists can agree on. Merlyn - I highly suggest you spend your efforts trying to CHANGE the BSA's policies and not try and outright kill them off.

 

To comment on Mr. Fogg's article I would say that Obedient, like the word Discipline, gets a bad rap these days. In the context of the Scout Law, obedience teaches a Scout the importance that we live in a society that has rules. The rules of his family, school, and troop and the laws of his community and nation should be obeyed. The age old question of what to do with "unjust" rules or laws may come up. Scouting's answer is to obey these rules or laws and if you disagree with them to work within the system, so to speak, to get them changed. All encompassing codes have their flaws but overall that is not a bad value to teach boys in the 10 - 18 yr. old age group. The moral complexities of the real world are difficult enought for an adult to understand, much less a 12 year old kid. Just like teaching them to obey their parents is a good value to have at 12 but maybe by the time the Scout is 17, he will have the capacity to understand sometimes a parent can ask of him unethical things and his own judgement should come into play and blind following may not be such a good thing.

 

As for reverent - I like the author's "awe" approach. Admit it, just like masturbation, we may not all admit it but we all have questioned the existence of God at some point in our lives. However, all I have to do is attend a non-denominational Chapel Service in the great outdoors on hear the wind in the trees, birds in the distance and the calming effect that it has on hundreds of assembled 10-17 year old boys (and a few excitable men and women) to be in awe of our world. For that I have much reverence!

 

Now to say that truth, honesty and integrity are nowhere in the Socut Law is misleading. A Scout is trustworthy - he tells the Truth.

He is honest and keeps his promises. People can count on him (he has integrity).(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I am trying to change the BSA's policies. Please note that the BSA has only expanded their discriminatory programs to include gays and atheists exactly twice:

 

First, soon after Learning for Life was created, the BSA dropped the requirement that public schools not allow gays and atheists as leaders in the L4L program.

 

Second, when Chicago agreed to stop chartering 28 BSA units in 1998, the BSA announced that it was splitting Exploring into Exploring and Venturing, with Exploring now under Learning for Life and allowing gays and atheists.

 

Notice that both these changes were made so government agencies could continue to use the programs that were affected; public schools would not be able to use the Learning for Life program if adults had to meet the BSA's discriminatory requirements, and police and fire departments would not be able to use the Exploring program if adults and youth had to meet the BSA's discriminatory requirements.

 

I think it's likely that the BSA will again decide to change their policies when faced with the possibility of losing thousands of charters from government agencies due to their discriminatory requirements.

[SR540Beaver]

Merlyn: "I think it's likely that the BSA will again decide to change their policies when faced with the possibility of losing thousands of charters from government agencies due to their discriminatory requirements."

 

I doubt it. There are plenty of NGO's out there who have deep respect for the BSA program that will be more than willing to pick up the slack and keep units from folding. If all government entites quit chartering units, it will have almost a zero effect on scouting.

 

The question then will be whether you Merlyn will be satisfied that the government and BSA have been seperated or if you will continue your crusade against the BSA for other reasons?

 

[NJCubScouter]

I looked at Merlyn's list for New Jersey, and there are two schools that sort of stick out as being private schools, not public schools or school districts. One is the American Boychoir School, the other is the Noor-Ul-Iman Schools, Inc. I checked both of their web sites and the first is a private boarding middle school for boys, and the second is an Islamic religious school, but they are both obviously private.

 

More generally, on all of these units that are supposedly chartered to schools, I would be interested in seeing what the charters actually say. I would be not be surprised if you were to find that many of them, perhaps a majority, actually are chartered to PTA's or similar organizations (PTO's, Home-and-School Associations, etc.) comprised of parents in the schools, but not the schools themselves. I have found that a number of people whose units meet in schools are not perfectly clear on who or what the CO actually is, and whatever source you are using may say the "school" when actually it is a separate organization. I had this experience myself, when I first got involved with a Cub pack I asked who the CO was and told it was the school, but when I got my hands on the charter itself, it turned out that it was actually the PTO.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

My source is the BSA itself; I didn't include the many charter partners that said "PTA", "PTO" "friends of xxx", etc. I have done spotchecks on some entries by calling BSA councils and getting the charter partner from registration, and they've been accurate.

[evmori]

Merlyn,

I didn't create the list & since you seem to be the keeper of the list I suggest you do the research necessary to have it represent only public schools. You are the one over inflating the number of public "illegally" chartering BSA unit! If you can't represent the facts correctly, don't represent them at all. The disclaimer that the list was computer generated has nothing to do with it's accuracy! Credibility is important, Merlyn! And yours is slipping quickly!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Backpacker]

ED

 

Why do you let Merlyn bait you, it is a total waste of energy and time the same way it was with (someone who hasnt posted here in awhile) . No one will ever change Merlyns mind, he is a sad and bitter individual who is nothing more than a know it all smart arse. We should be concentrating on the formation of youth not bickering over legal trivia. Let the courts decide what they want the BSA will survive it. The absurdity of Merlyns arguments manifest themselves constantly, just laugh them off, thats what most of us do. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hey Ed, I'll take off any schools that are private that I know about. And you might be interested to know that during the Winkler litigation to remove all military sponsors, the Boy Scouts of America couldn't even come up with a definitive list of military sponsors, which they were supposed to do as part of discovery. I know my list will have some private schools on it, and I state that right up front. I also know there are government charters that I've missed. It's also a couple of months old by now, too. It's still sufficient to start removing public schools as BSA charters.

[evmori]

Backpacker,

Thanks for looking out for me but I'm not being baited. I am a willing participant.

 

Merlyn,

Since your list seems to be flawed, your credibility is too! Your stats are inflated by your inability to correctly put together a list of public schools chartering BSA units! It is not my or anyone else's responsibility to correct your mistakes. It is yours! And you will probably sluff it off like you do every time someone points out your flawed & misguided ways!

 

The one thing I will do for you, Merlyn, is continue to pray for you.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, I'm not putting this list together for "credibility", I'm doing it so state ACLUs can get started on removing public schools and other government agencies as charter partners. Any private schools that are on the list inadvertently would simply be skipped.