article: Scout's honor

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad writes:

Second, no fair minded person is so willing to throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

Let me ask you, how good would a youth group have to be for you to turn a blind eye to government agencies running these youth groups if anyone could join as long as they weren't Jewish? And this youth group's "declaration of religious principle" said that Jewish members couldn't be the best kinds of citizens? Would you be willing to have your local police department run such a group? Mine does, if you change Jew to atheist.

 

So how good would such a youth group have to be for you to support your local police running one?

[berkshirescouter]

Here is my take on this. Hold your fire I will duck first.

A charter partner can be as active or not as they choose. In many cases they may own the unit in name only. The unit committee runs the unit in most cases.

The issue is that a gov. entity cannot run specific kinds of groups. In that, Merlyn, I understand your point.

A possible compromise would be a gov. charter partner would be:

1. Last resort. No other group is available.

2. Exercise no power over the unit thus not run and own the unit. They just supply the meeting place. The fee is $25 and could be paid by the unit itself. No gov. funds. Would this work? If not why not.

[OldGreyEagle]

So, Merlyn, if all BSA units that are chartered by governmental units, such as schools, police and fire depts and the like were rechartered by either Churches, Parents Groups, and private groups and only used public property on the same basis as all other private organizations, you wouldnt care a thing about us, right ?

[cliffgolden]

>>>>Eagledad writes>>>>>

If you were personally given the ability to kill the BSA completely or leave it alone as it is presently, what would choose?

>>>>>>>>

 

>>>>>Merlyn responds>>>>>

If those are my ONLY to choices, I'd have to kill it, because currently the federal and state governments are violating the rights of atheists by having government agencies run Boy Scout units that unlawfully practice religious discrimination, which is unconstitutional. Religious civil rights are too important to violate so casually.

>>>>>>>>

 

If those weren't your only two choices, what would you rather do?

 

Naturally I would have to disagree with your killing off the Scouts. I think the Scouting organization does many great things for a lot of kids.

 

I understand your argument against using government sponsorship for a private organization that does not have inclusive membership. (Although the government does provide chapels on military bases using federal funds.)

 

The ACLU went after the city of Chicago a few years back, and that pretty much ended that type of municipal sponsorship. Exploring was absorbed into Learning for Life for those municipal sponsored units. The DOD is now stopping the direct sponsorship of units.

 

I don't know of any public schools sponsoring units in my local area. PTA's used to, but not anymore.

 

Scouting will still have fair access to public facilities. The loss of that type of direct sponsorship will have little consequence.

 

The BSA, through Learning for Life, does serve youth that are atheist. If you were able to kill off the BSA, you would be hurting atheist children as well as believers.

 

How are you specifically being hurt by the BSA existing? At what point would you feel at peace?

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Its trail day, it still wouldn't work, because a public school can't own and operate a religiously discriminatory group, even if it costs nothing to do so. The BSA says the charter partner owns and operates the unit, and is responsible for selecting the leadership of the group. Public schools can't fulfill that requirement, because part of selecting leadership is determining if the person meets the BSA's religious requirements.

 

OGE, there are still other issues; for example, the Boy Scouts, while being an organization that discriminates against atheists, teaches that atheist members can't be the best kinds of citizens, and has thousands of public schools currently running their "private" no-atheists-allowed youth groups, also teaches schoolkids (including atheist schoolkids) through their Learning for Life program how to make ethical decisions.

 

I do not consider the BSA to be an ethical organization any longer, and I certainly object to a subsidiary of an organization that discriminates against atheists to have programs in public schools that pretend to teach ethics.

 

Freemasons exclude atheists, and I only argue with freemasons when I notice one defaming atheists, because freemasons (as far as I know) do it with their own money, and don't try to teach ethics in public schools.

[Eagledad]

>>Let me ask you, how good would a youth group have to be for you to turn a blind eye to government agencies running these youth groups if anyone could join as long as they weren't Jewish?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

cliffgolden writes:

If those weren't your only two choices, what would you rather do?

 

Realistically, the two choices are more along the lines of the BSA either dropping their discriminatory membership requirements, or losing all government sponsorship. I'd prefer the former, but it may well end up being the latter. Since the BSA isn't changing, it's time to go after the government sponsorship using legal action, since the government can't practice such discrimination.

 

The ACLU went after the city of Chicago a few years back, and that pretty much ended that type of municipal sponsorship.

 

Only in Chicago. That's why I'm still working with various state ACLUs to stop all the other government sponsorship that still exists.

 

Exploring was absorbed into Learning for Life for those municipal sponsored units.

 

Yes; as a direct result of the ACLU legal action, Exploring has been open to atheists and gays for about five years now (the split was announced a week after Chicago settled). Before that, there were e.g. Police Explorer units that were officially "no atheists allowed", and the BSA actually expected police departments to break the law and exclude atheists (as the Rick Sherman case showed; the police department had to drop their Explorer Post when the BSA refused to admit Rick because he was an atheist).

 

The DOD is now stopping the direct sponsorship of units.

 

Also due to the same Illinois ACLU; notice the Boy Scouts haven't been voluntarily ending these relationships, even though that would be the honest thing to do.

 

I don't know of any public schools sponsoring units in my local area. PTA's used to, but not anymore.

 

Where are you located? I've found public school charters in all 50 states; see http://www.scoutingforall.org/packtroop if you want to look it up yourself.

 

The BSA, through Learning for Life, does serve youth that are atheist. If you were able to kill off the BSA, you would be hurting atheist children as well as believers.

 

As I explained to OGE, I don't think the current BSA offers anything worthwhile to atheist youth. It would be better to find a similar program that isn't owned by a parent company that denegrates atheists.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad writes:

I can't relate because Scouting is based from moral strength. Folks accept the scouting program because character is based from moral ideals. Moral ideals are based from religious principles. Atheist morals are based from what?

 

I didn't ask you to "relate", I asked you how good a youth program would have to be in order for you to turn a blind eye to blatant discrimination against Jews.

 

If it was a really, really, really good program for (non-Jewish) kids, would that be enough for you to ignore public schools and police departments operating such youth groups that turn away Jews?

 

Don't dodge the question, answer it. How good would it need to be for you to ignore the civil rights of Jews? You seem to have no problem ignoring the civil rights of atheists.

[cliffgolden]

>>>>>cliffgolden writes:

If those weren't your only two choices, what would you rather do?

>>>>>

 

>>>>>Merlyn writes

Realistically, the two choices are more along the lines of the BSA either dropping their discriminatory membership requirements, or losing all government sponsorship. I'd prefer the former, but it may well end up being the latter. Since the BSA isn't changing, it's time to go after the government sponsorship using legal action, since the government can't practice such discrimination.

>>>>>

 

You are not asking the BSA to stop discriminating, as much as you are asking them to abandon their beliefs.

 

Churches sponsor most Scout units, if the BSA changed their membership policies for traditional units, they would be betraying most of their sponsors.

 

Rather than abandon those they already serve they expanded into a new program with LFL to embrace those with other views. It doesn't sound like you want to be embraced.

 

>>>>>cliffgolden writes

I don't know of any public schools sponsoring units in my local area. PTA's used to, but not anymore.

>>>>>

 

>>>>>Merlyn writes

Where are you located? I've found public school charters in all 50 states; see http://www.scoutingforall.org/packtroop if you want to look it up yourself.

>>>>>

 

I live in DeKalb, Illinois as my signature indicates. I checked the website you suggested and DeKalb has no units on the list.

 

>>>>>Merlyn writes

As I explained to OGE, I don't think the current BSA offers anything worthwhile to atheist youth. It would be better to find a similar program that isn't owned by a parent company that denegrates atheists.

>>>>>

 

That is of course your opinion, and you can believe what you choose. I think there are many who feel differently. Learning for Life has involved over 10 million young people.

 

Which organization would you suggest for atheist children?

 

I find it discouraging to see people who want to tear down the BSA rather than build an alternative program they believe could serve youth better. It shows intolerance, which is itself, a source of discrimination.

 

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

 

[cliffgolden]

>>>>>Merlyn writes

I didn't ask you to "relate", I asked you how good a youth program would have to be in order for you to turn a blind eye to blatant discrimination against Jews.

>>>>>

 

If a Catholic Chapel on a military base offered a youth program for the children of their parish, I would have no problem with that.

 

Although it wouldn't be serving Jewish children, or Protestant children for that matter, I wouldn't view it necessarily as discrimination against anyone.

 

I would see it as serving the needs of a specific group.

 

If a school wanted to sponsor a gay rights group only open to gays or an atheist club only open to atheists, I wouldn't be bothered by that either.

 

Why are some people so intolerant of a group of heterosexuals that believe in God.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[evmori]

Merlyn & the ACLU just want to destroy Scouting! Their claim that by chartering a BSA unit violates the Constitution is such a stretch! The Supreme Court ruled the BSA could excluded atheists! Now the ACLU is persecuting the BSA because they are doing exactly what they are allowed to do! Is it discrimination to exclude atheists? Yes it is. Doesn't the IBEW discriminate? You must be a registered electrician to be a member! And I'm sure they receive public funding of some sort! Why don't they receive the same wrath from the ACLU the BSA does?

 

Be careful Merlyn. If you succeed in your quest to get special rights for atheists you might find out you won't be able to ride in the front of the bus!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

cliffgolden writes:

 

>>>>>Merlyn writes

I didn't ask you to "relate", I asked you how good a youth program would have to be in order for you to turn a blind eye to blatant discrimination against Jews.

>>>>>

 

If a Catholic Chapel on a military base offered a youth program for the children of their parish, I would have no problem with that.

 

Well, that isn't the question I was asking.

 

How about a program that admits all kids, except Jewish kids, owned & operated by public schools and police departments? A program which says Jewish members can't be the best kinds of citizens?

[EagleInKY]

If the Jewish faith stood for something that was in total opposition of what the program represented, and by admitting them they would be detracting from the program, then they would have every right to exclude them. You've chosen a "faith", or lack thereof, that is incongruent with Scouting's values. Yet, you expect the program to change. How selfish of you.

[Adrianvs]

Merlyn,

 

Would you object to a government sponsored program (however you choose to define that) which discriminates against nihilists? Any group which subscribes to any ethical code and demands that its members do the same discriminates against nihilists. Some religions are theistic, so atheism is a religious principle. Fine, I will agree to that. Some religions are purely ethical, so nihilism is a religious principle as well.

 

So tell me why your religious principles of "tolerance" and "open-mindedness" can be sponsored by a public school, but someone else's principle of an Absolute cannot?

 

Would YOU agree or disagree with the statement that nihilists cannot become the best kind of citizens?

 

On what basis do you allow discrimination against nihilists?

 

Why is it only your creed that can be sponsored?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

EagleInKY writes:

If the Jewish faith stood for something that was in total opposition of what the program represented, and by admitting them they would be detracting from the program, then they would have every right to exclude them.

 

Not public schools and police departments.

 

adrianvs, public schools can't practice religious discrimination. I don't know of any public schools that exclude nihilists for being nihilists from a school organization, and I don't know of any reason why a public school would want to do so.

 

Meanwhile, in the real world where I happen to live, thousands of public schools are expected to exclude atheists from Scout units the schools own & operate. And yes, I do have a problem with that.