evmori Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 cfs4539, I think Merlyn does lose sleep over this. He is so misguided & hateful of the BSA it seems he will stop at nothing to destroy them! It is sad. I have continued to pray for him. I would suggest we all do the same. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4;10 A blessed Christmas to all!(This message has been edited by evmori) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingagain Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Just following up on what I believe are some incorrect assumptions regarding the ACLU legal actions that effect scouts. 1. The ACLU legal action is targeted at the government, not the BSA. Unfortunately individual scout units suffer the consequences of the illegal actions of government, either federal or local. 2. There is nothing in the ACLU lawsuits that prevent scout units from meeting in public schools, camping at public parks or having access to government facilities. Also, just curious, For those that feel that the government should be allowed to charter, (i.e. Own and operate) scout units, would you be willing to allow the government to set membership standards for those units? If they are owned and operated by the government, any argument that they are private, and free to set their own membership standards is lost. In fact I could see government chartering of scout units as a way to evetually provide a "local option" on membership in a similar way that Learning for Life has different membership standards than the BSA does. As I said, be careful what you wish for? SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 cfs4539, I didn't write the original article, I reposted it here (with a link to the original URL) because this is a forum for discussing such things. And I DON'T have the same access as the majority; right now, public schools own & operate "private" BSA units that exclude atheists. Do public schools own and run any youth groups that only allow atheists and exclude theists? No. Would it be legal for public schools to do so? No. Yet there are still thousands of public schools breaking the law on behalf of the BSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Merlyn, in an underhanded attempt to get you to go after another sacred cow.... The U.S. Government, in the form of the judicial branch, sentences many "criminals" guilty of alcohol related offenses to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. One of the 12 steps that the A.A. uses is a belief that a "higher power" could restore their sanity and another step that one should make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand him. Still others "to admit to God ... our wrongs", "be ready for God to remove all of our defects of character", ask "Him" to remove our shortcomings", and "seek through prayer ... our conscious contact with God." . Now, wouldn't this be a case of the Government, in the form of judicial sentencing, discriminating against atheists? Go fight the good fight Merlyn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 23, 2004 Author Share Posted December 23, 2004 There are already a number of court precidents making it unlawful to require AA attendance for exactly that reason: 1996 NY state supreme court: http://archive.aclu.org/news/w061296b.html Ruling that Alcoholics Anonymous "engages in religious activity and religious proselytization,'' New York state's highest court declared Tuesday that state prison officials were wrong to penalize an inmate who stopped attending the organization's self-help meetings because he said he was an atheist or an agnostic, The New York Times reports. The court ordered prison officials not to tie the man's eligibility for a family reunion program to his refusal to take part in the Alcoholics Anonymous sessions at Shawangunk state prison in Ulster County. ... 1995 California http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/norcacya.htm Settlement Halts Mandatory Religious Substance Abuse Program at California Youth Authority American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California August 28, 1995 -- The ACLU of Northern California, the Prison Law Office and the American Jewish Congress won a settlement on May 12 in a lawsuit filed on behalf of wards at the Karl Holton School, a California Youth Authority facility in Stockton. The settlement also covers a challenge to the program by teachers at the facility, who were represented by the California State Employees Association. As a result of the settlement agreement, the CYA will modify a Twelve Step substance abuse program that involves prayer and "conscious contact with God" so that it no longer infringes on the religious freedom of the incarcerated youth or the constitutional prohibitions against the establishment of religion by the state. "This case presented a pristine civil liberties issue," said ACLU-NC attorney Margaret Crosby. "The state was forcing young people to attend religious classes at a public school, and to adopt theistic concepts or suffer punishment. ... There's a case currently in the courts in Ohio: http://www.acluohio.org/docket/docket.htm ... Mandatory Alcoholics Anonymous for DUI Offenders FACTS: Our client was sentenced to mandatory AA participation as a result of a DUI conviction. He was never offered any counseling alternative other than AA, and he chose to serve out the balance of a jail sentence rather than attend the meetings. The religious component to AA meetings was offensive to his beliefs. LEGAL THEORY: This case presents a straightforward Establishment Clause violation, conditioning a criminal sentence on attendance at religious meetings. STATUS: Our complaint was filed in November 2002. Both sets of defendants moved for summary judgment, invoking judicial immunity (in the case of the judge) and a lack of state action (in the case of the contract probation service). In January 2004, after the case was re-opened, we filed a brief in opposition to the Summary Judgment Motion of Behavioral Connections of Wood County. ... I've also seen cites for cases in Maryland, Colorado, Alaska and Wisconsin. Here's a similar sort of case in Michigan: http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=363 July 20, 2004 - Press Release DETROIT The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan asked the Michigan Supreme Court today to hear a case of a Catholic man who was criminally punished for not completing a Pentacostal drug rehabilitation program. His request to be transferred to another program was denied and he was sentenced to six months in jail and boot camp. "This man was punished for insisting on the right to practice his own religion and refusing to be religiously indoctrinated as a condition of a court order, said Kary Moss, ACLU of Michigan Executive Director. The endorsement of any faith as well as the discouragement of any other is clearly a violation of the First Amendment. Joseph Hanas of Genesee County, now 22 years old, pled guilty in the Genesee Circuit Court to a charge of marijuana possession in February 2001. He was placed in a "Drug Court for non-violent offenders, allowing for a deferred sentence and possible dismissal of the charges if he successfully completed the Inner City Christian Outreach Residential Program. Unbeknownst to Mr. Hanas when he entered the program, one of the goals of Christian Outreach was to convert him from Catholicism to the Pentecostal faith. He was forced to read the bible for seven hours a day and was tested on Pentecostal principles. The staff also told him that Catholicism was a form of witchcraft and they confiscated both his rosary and Holy Communion prayer book. At one point, the program director told his aunt that he gave up his right of freedom of religion when he was placed into this program. Mr. Hanas was told that in order to complete the program successfully he would have to declare he was saved and was threatened that if he didnt do what the pastor told him to do, he would be washed of the program and go to prison. ... 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evmori Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Once again the ACLU stomps all over the right of religious freedom! Now that's the American way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzy Bear Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Ed, How do yo do that smiley face with the wink? FB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWScouter Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Ed, If you got a speeding ticket and the courts required you to attend a program to control your driving. Now Muslims ran the program and you were required to pray to Allah on a rug facing Mecca and then memorize large passages of the Koran, would you sue? I bet the ACLU would be right there to help you. Is that stepping on their religious freedom and so you should be required to take that course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 NW, Would I sue? No I wouldn't. I would go back to the state & tell them that what the instructors were requiring had nothing to do with my reason for being there and hope the state would have the unnecessary requirements removed. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed Christmas to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 24, 2004 Author Share Posted December 24, 2004 Ed, read the story at the URL. The program was put on by one of Bush's "faith-based" groups, and it was this private group that had the requirements, not the state. When he asked to be transferred to some other group, the judge refused and basically said he had to use that one or go to jail. See, this is what sometimes happens in the real world; a state-financed program violates your religious rights, and to get them back, you HAVE to litigate. Asking didn't work. So Ed, if you hoped the state would remove the requirements, and the judge (as in this case) says no, complete the course as-is or go to jail, NOW would you sue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 Merlyn, No I wouldn't sue. I would just stop going. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 24, 2004 Author Share Posted December 24, 2004 Ed, you realize that "just stop going" means you go to jail for six months, don't you? That was the choice the judge gave to Mr. Hanas - either attend and successfully complete the program as an alternative to jail, or serve his six-month sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 6 months in jail for a traffic violation? Sound like appeal time to me. And yes I would just stop going. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 A blessed Christmas to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted December 24, 2004 Author Share Posted December 24, 2004 Ed, you apparently aren't honest enough to answer the question. "stop going" isn't one of the choices the judge gives you. It's either complete the program or jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 LeRoy writes>>I don't think the current BSA offers anything worthwhile to atheist youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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