article: Scout's honor

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

http://www2.townonline.com/braintree/opinion/view.bg?articleid=145041

 

In the past, I've admired the work of the Boy Scouts of America. Shaping

the character of boys by doing and earning merit badges seemed like a

good idea. I am all for teaching kids the values of trustworthiness,

loyalty, helpfulness, friendliness, courteousness, kindness,

cheerfulness, bravery, and cleanliness.

 

"Obedience" is in their list, but I've never thought its inclusion

was a good idea. Obedience is a trait that seems un-American and more

appropriate to Nazi youth or dogs. For "obedience," I would substitute

one or more of the following admirable character traits: forgiveness,

honesty, and open-mindedness. These character traits are not even a part

of the "Scout Law," but kids need to practice them early.

 

I also have misgivings about "reverent," which is on their list.

Although I believe it is important to have deep respect, tinged with awe

(a dictionary definition of reverence) for some central value (a painter

should be reverent about his art, a mother about her child), the broad

dictionary definition of reverent is unacceptable to the current Boy

Scout leadership. For them, you cannot be reverent unless you really do

believe in their God.

 

Since they cannot crawl inside a youngster's mind to verify whether

his belief is genuine and developed, this Scout law comes down to the

requirement that young scouts must say they believe in God even if they

have doubts or are confused.

 

A Seattle-area Eagle Scout named Darrell Lambert had been in the

scouts since the age of nine. At 14 and in high school, he found that he

could no longer accept the notion of God and made no effort to hide his

doubts. (Give him another merit badge for honesty.) The Scout

organization allowed him to stay in the scouts as an active volunteer

until he was a freshman in college. Then they threw him out of the

Scouts for being unable to honestly say he believed in God.

 

The reason I have been thinking through this broad and narrow

definition of reverence is that I received a holiday donation plea from

an executive of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

When I first saw his letter, I expected that it would be a simple

request to help continue the good things that scouting can do for boys.

Instead, the letter contained the same smug ideological claptrap I

encountered in the "culture wars" of the last election.

 

The letter begins, "Do you ever despair at what's happening in our

society today? Or feel that the old-fashioned values of truth, honesty,

and integrity are crumbling all around you? We know how you feel. It

concerns us deeply, too." In the next paragraph, the letter says, "And,

we are determined to stand strong against all pressures and any demands

in the future that we become more 'politically correct.'"

 

Note that the virtues he mentions as "crumbling" - truth, honesty,

integrity - are not even a part of the Scout law. Moreover, this letter

is itself an example of "crumbling" honesty. He self-righteously assumes

his views are the moral high ground and proudly and glibly declares his

strong intolerance for those who would disagree with him. He does this

not by a fair argument, but by simply dismissing opposing views as "PC."

*Far right propaganda also likes to mischaracterize its opponents

as "relativists.")

 

The opposite of absolutism and closed-mindedness is not PC or

wishy-washy relativism. but thoughtful consideration of the other point

of view. This is a prime feature of any free society that respects the

rights of those who do not conform.

 

Current scout leadership, as evidenced by this letter, is

apparently not content shaping our children's character and behavior.

They seem to insist on controlling the way they think and what they

think. They are "preachers" in the worse sense. Their intent is to

proselytize, not simply inform or educate. For them, open-mindedness is

a part of the devil's work. These attitudes are not good for our kids,

nor are they good for our country.

 

Oddly enough, there is appreciation for open-mindedness expressed

in the Official Boy Scout Handbook. In one section it reads, "All your

life you will be with people of different faiths and customs. The men

who founded the United States of America gave us a heritage of religious

freedom. It is our duty to respect others whose religion may differ from

ours, even though we do not agree with them . . . You know that each

person is an individual with ideas and ways of his own. To be a real

friend, you must accept the other person as he is, show interest in him,

and respect his differences . . .."

 

I want to give to the Boy Scouts, but I am uncomfortable supporting

an organization whose leaders (like many church leaders) refuse to honor

open-mindedness as one of their operating virtues. Supporting them seems

contrary to America's sacraments of freedom of thought and individual

rights. You can't force someone to believe in God, and it is unfair to

require it of a nine-year-old child who can barely get his mind around

theological questions. Kids can learn to be admirable human beings

without a theological requirement that may be impossible for them to

honestly satisfy. They can build character by doing.

 

Perhaps this year I'll give to the Girl Scouts. I understand they

have not been taken over by the bigoted religious crusaders in our

midst.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I wonder what the author's opinion is on Alcholics Anonymous, or Gambler's Anonymous ?

 

Anyway, I do have a direct question for Merlyn, unrelated to this particular post. In the past few months or so I have been visiting other Scouting based forums and while I see many common posters here and other places, I do not see anything from Merlyn or any other Atheist Activist. So, do you need a list of the websites ? I could send it to you, I do have to wonder why you don't blanket all the scouting forums with your activism

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Aside from usenet, most other scout forums I've seen are either on other topics, or are a general topic but exclude the 3 Gs, like scouts-l. But sure, send me a list (or why not post it, I'm sure other people would like to see it), thanks.

[Eagledad]

So, is Merlyn a scouter or been involved in scouting?

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I was a cub scout about 35 years ago, and I'm involved with Scouting For All, which is involved in Scouting to the extent that SFA advocates that the BSA change its discriminatory policies.

[Eagledad]

So you are not presently and have not been involved in scouting since Cub Scouts 35 years ago.

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

My apologies, I left out the question mark. That last post was a question, not a statement.

 

So you are not presently and have not been involved in scouting since Cub Scouts 35 years ago?

 

Barry

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Correct, though as an atheist I can't join Boy Scouts anyway (not in the US, at least).

[Eagledad]

So it's fair to say you really don't have a clue about the program and how it contributes to our youth and society.

 

If you were personally given the ability to kill the BSA completely or leave it alone as it is presently, what would choose?

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad writes:

So it's fair to say you really don't have a clue about the program and how it contributes to our youth and society.

 

No, it wouldn't be fair to say that.

 

If you were personally given the ability to kill the BSA completely or leave it alone as it is presently, what would choose?

 

If those are my ONLY to choices, I'd have to kill it, because currently the federal and state governments are violating the rights of atheists by having government agencies run Boy Scout units that unlawfully practice religious discrimination, which is unconstitutional. Religious civil rights are too important to violate so casually.

[cajuncody]

Merlyn writes : "If those are my ONLY to choices, I'd have to kill it, because currently the federal and state governments are violating the rights of atheists by having government agencies run Boy Scout units that unlawfully practice religious discrimination, which is unconstitutional. Religious civil rights are too important to violate so casually"

 

I disagree. This country was founded on the belief that we needed religous freedom. That means you are free to believe or not believe. What really irks me is that people like you "say" we are trying to force our religion on you when in fact you are trying to force your non religion on the rest of us. We can't have any religious objects on display in public places but isn't that basically allowing you to display your "non god". You see it as there is no God so we shouldn't see any signs of Him in our court houses but that just means that we have to look at "objects " of your religion. It seems to me that you are violating my civil rights.

Scouts is not out there trying to convert people, we are simply an organazation with membership requirements. If you don't want to join a religious organazation then go find a chess club.

Kristi

[SemperParatus]

From American Atheists website:

 

MEMBERSHIP IN AMERICAN ATHEISTS

Benefits and Privileges...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your membership in American Atheists shows that you care about taking a stand for Reason, civil liberties for Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of church and state! Membership is open to all who agree with our Statement of Principles. Joining American Atheists, though, also has it rewards! Benefits and Privileges of Membership include... (click here to apply)

Membership dues and donations to American Atheists are tax deductible.

 

 

So...if I understand this organization, membership is not allowed to a person that believes in a supreme being because that would not be in agreement with its Statement of Principles. Further, because of the tax deductibility of dues and donations (and presumably the nontaxability of the organization's income) this organization is essentially receiving a government subsidy. Now, you want to try and explain how that would be any different than the boy scouts restricting membership and receiving governmental support?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

cajuncody writes:

What really irks me is that people like you "say" we are trying to force our religion on you when in fact you are trying to force your non religion on the rest of us.

 

How so? Some specific examples from the real world would be helpful.

 

We can't have any religious objects on display in public places but isn't that basically allowing you to display your "non god".

 

No, having NO objects on display says nothing. A sign saying "gods are myths" would be advancing the idea that gods are myths. Do you complain about math courses that teach 2 + 3 = 5 without mentioning gods as basically stating that gods don't exist?

 

Besides, your premise is false; you CAN have religious objects on display in public places; churches, for example, are typically in public places and they can put up religious objects.

 

Perhaps you meant "public property", but you'd still be wrong, as public forums are public property where anyone is welcome to put up various signs & displays (usually for a limited time so everyone has opportunities to use it). Of course, atheists would have equal access to this forum, so you can end up with both religious and atheistic displays, as in Madison, Wisconsin.

 

Perhaps you're simply complaining that the government doesn't promote your particular religious view while excluding other people's views. That's the first amendment for ya.

 

You see it as there is no God so we shouldn't see any signs of Him in our court houses but that just means that we have to look at "objects " of your religion.

 

We certainly shouldn't have government officials erecting signs promoting their view of religion in courthouses, that's a pretty blatant violation of the first amendment. And I have no idea what '"objects" of my religion' is supposed to refer to; I don't HAVE a religion (though some atheists do).

 

It seems to me that you are violating my civil rights.

 

How so? Be specific, and keep in mind that I have exactly the same civil rights as you. Civil rights are not determined by majorities or popularity.

 

Scouts is not out there trying to convert people, we are simply an organazation with membership requirements. If you don't want to join a religious organazation then go find a chess club.

 

Why are thousands of public schools running your "private, discriminatory" groups? If you want to be a religious organization, don't have public schools as charter partners.

[Eagledad]

>>No, it wouldn't be fair to say that.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SemperParatus writes:

So...if I understand this organization, membership is not allowed to a person that believes in a supreme being because that would not be in agreement with its Statement of Principles. Further, because of the tax deductibility of dues and donations (and presumably the nontaxability of the organization's income) this organization is essentially receiving a government subsidy. Now, you want to try and explain how that would be any different than the boy scouts restricting membership and receiving governmental support?

 

Because the Boy Scouts' governmental support that I am talking about is not non-profit status (which any group can get, regardless of their religious views) but things like public schools owning & operating Cub Scout Packs (even though public schools can't discriminate on the basis of religion), and HUD grants (which specifically require not discriminating on the basis of religion, yet the BSA uses them for their discriminatory programs).

 

If you'd like to propose that all non-profits pay taxes (including churches), fine by me; meanwhile, I'm going to focus on government agencies that discriminate against atheists by chartering BSA units.