Are there any cases where the ACLU supported Scouts?

[fgoodwin]

Merlyn, I didn't know you were an atheist, but knowing that now, I can certainly understand why you feel as you do about BSA.

[Its Me]

 

What if there was a Star Wars club at school and to be a member you had to believe that Star Wars was really cool.

 

 

[TDavis]

" Fred, I'm an atheist activist and I work for atheists' rights."

 

Merlyn, are you really working for atheists rights, or are you just working against Christians?

[whitewater]

ScoutingAgain offered some cases that the ACLU was involved in that supported the argument that they were defenders of liberty and that they at least sometimes supported just causes.

 

I'd like to offer some other cases that the ACLU has been involved in (or is about to get involved in):

 

9/22/2004 Phoenix Requires Porn Filters in Libraries, ACLU Up In Arms

(http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=2102)

After experiencing the tragic effects of pornography, the city of Phoenix, Arizona, has issued a ban on internet pornography in the citys public libraries. Not surprisingly, the ACLU is planning to challenge the ban.

 

7/1/2004 ACLU Challenges Ban of Nude Teen Camps

(http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1881)

On June 29, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a federal lawsuit against the state of Virginia, claiming that a state law banning child nudity camps is unconstitutional. The ACLU argues that the law violates the childrens right to privacy.

 

6/1/2004 ACLU Forces L.A. County to Remove Cross from Seal

(http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1762)

On June 1, L.A. County officials voted 3-2 to remove the cross from the county's official seal following threats of a federal lawsuit from the ACLU.

 

4/22/2004 ACLU and Media Giants Lobby for F-Word

(http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1680)

Following the FCC's decision to prohibit the use of the "F-word" on the nation's airwaves, the ACLU and several major media giants are protesting the decision, demanding that the F-word be removed from the list of prohibited language.

 

4/16/2004 ACLU Sues School over Teachers Prayer Group

(http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1671)

On April 12, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a federal lawsuit against a Bossier Parish School Board in Louisiana because school officials have permitted faculty members to participate in a teacher-led prayer group designed exclusively for adults.

 

The ACLU appears to be quite liberal in its interrpretation of the 1st Ammendment. They are strangely silent on the 2nd Ammendment though.

 

 

[cajuncody]

The ACLU is alot like PETA, what started out as a good thing is now really about who they can tear down instead of who they can build up. When our Forefathers came to America it was to get away from religious repression and now here we are again right back where we started with a few people trying to dictate what we can and can't do.

Kristi

[Proud Eagle]

You know, if I was running a public school and wanted to sponsor Scouts, I would simply issue an open invitation, publicly, for any students, or group for students, that wanted to form for atheists, homosexuals, etc, that if they wanted to be sponsored by the school, we were willing to sponsor them as long as they could find someone to be members.

 

I think the way to get around the issues like the clan is by separating the issues of membership policies from issues like the activities of a group. For example, if a group's primary purpose is to engage in racism, then that is much different from a group that has racist membership policies.

 

In the case of the BSA, the purpose of the group is not to go out and actively seek to discriminate, alienate a part of the populace, or promote one group over another within the community at large. Rather the membership policies discriminate.

 

Also, if I were a public school wanting to sponsor a unit, I would make certain that all the staff understand that if they volunteer to help with a discriminatory group, that the school will not pay them to work with the group, nor will the school provide funds to the group. That way, if 70 different groups all came up looking for sponsorship, the school wouldn't be out any money.

 

Really, this is mostly a case of the fact that BSA is unique in its charter partner operating system. If BSA were a stand alone group, there would be no issue, because that would reduce the entire thing to an access issue, which I think BSA would win. Perhaps we need an intermediary organization to serve as the middle man when dealing with schools and government organizations. That way, they can sponsor (but not own or operate) the XYZ group, which in turn charters a Scout unit. That would at least provide an extra layer of separation. Sort of like that plausible deniability thing for covert operations.

 

 

 

In any case, I think it is rather telling that rather than advocating in favor of athiests being given more services so they can be on equal footing, the objective is to deny everyone those services. That is certainly a negative, destructive approach that does not in any way benefit any one. It will not make life better for athiests. Instead, it will make life worse for thiests. What a really crappy attitude.

 

You know, good old honest Abe had a quote about that sort of thing. He said something along the lines of, "A man can not build up his own house by pulling down the house of his neighbor."

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

That doesn't fix the discrimination problems. For example, this program:

http://www.ssd.k12.mo.us/Sp_edu/enrichment_programs/

 

It's run by the school, and all students must be able to join, because it's the school's program.

[baschram645]

To Merlyn_Leroy

I dont know about the rest of the posters here, but I will say a prayer for you. Not that you should succeed in your endeavors, but because a Scout is Kind.

[evmori]

OK so a public school owns and operates a BSA unit. According to Merlyn, that is in violation of the 1st Amendment because the BSA legally discriminates. But doesn't the 1st Amendment also deal with the freedom OF religion? So by not allowing a public school to own a BSA unit, is that in violation of the freedom OF religion?

 

Merlyn will probably not answer this because he thinks I am an idiot so that gives him the right to dismiss my questions. Typical ACLUer.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, public schools have no right to the free exercise of religion because they aren't people; they're government agencies which have to be neutral on the basis of religion, or else they're infringing on the free exercise rights of the students, who ARE people with such rights.

[boleta]

I do not understand the resistance of the Scouters on this Forum to the separation of church and state advocated by Merlyn and ACLUers. Keeping the government out of our Private organization can only be a good thing. We in BSA have no trouble finding Charter Organizations. We do not need a governmental agency- school or military to be our Charters This does not prevent us from using their facilities which we do all of the time.

 

 

[evmori]

So it is OK for public schools to discriminate because a public school isn't a person? That clears things up!

 

boleta,

Now where in the Constitution does it state the church and state must be separate.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Whitewater, in answer to your second amendment question, I examine my area (listening to gunshots in our development on a Sunday morning before church while I write this) and I detect no infringements. Therefore no need for the ACLU to protect the right. (or do you want free access to fully automatic weapons?)

 

Tdavis, regarding your comment to Merlyn about being anti-Christian, why Christian? You do know that quite a few folks in this country are neither atheist nor Christian, don't you?

[LovetoCamp]

"I don't want a teenage queen, I just want my M-14"

 

I wouldn't mind buying an automatic weapon or two. A little rock-n-roll on the range. How fun would that be? Add that one to the options on the Rifle Shooting Merit Badge. You could opt to either use a .22 on a bench rest or use an air rifle, or....you could engage targets with a M-16 on rock-n-roll and if you actually hit the target you complete that requirement.

[Proud Eagle]

Which version of the M16 will we be using?

 

If it is the M16A2 or M16A4 we won't have full auto, only a three round burst.

 

That would probably make the hitting the target a bit easier. Though really, you should hit the target on a BSA range even with a full auto weapon... at least on the first shot...

 

 

Personally though, I am holding out for the "Field Artillery MB". Heck, that would be fun even with an old bronze, smooth-bore 12 lb. Napoleon.