Pentagon agrees to tell US bases not to sponsor Boy Scout units

[molscouter]

Merlyn, a Catholic priest may not knowingly give communion to a non-Catholic. To do so would be a violation of Church rules and to require him to do so would be the Government establishing a religion. That does not mean he can't provide counseling, guidance, red-tape cutting or any other service that a chaplain provides. Now if the atheist in question had been baptised a Catholic and received the proper instruction in the sacrament of the Eucharist (like 2nd graders do) and he was returning to the flock, so to speak, different question. But of course, if that was the case, he would not be an atheist, would he.

[whitewater]

So let me see if I understand this- it's OK for the military (i.e the government) to tell clergy how and to whom to administer their religion to?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I guess the military must've got it all wrong then:

 

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=5814

Muslim Chaplain Deploys to Kuwait

 

SAN DIEGO (NNS) -- Lt. Hussain M. Shaikh, a Muslim chaplain assigned to Commander, Amphibious Group 3, recently deployed to the Arabian Gulf in support of Operation Enduring Freedom and the global war on terror.

 

Shaikh is one of only three Navy chaplains to wear the Islamic crescent moon pin on his left collar tip. His primary mission is to minister and provide spiritual care for all religious faiths in the fleet. As an Imam (leader or guide), Shaikh leads Islamic prayers, counsels Sailors and serves as an interpreter of the Koran, Islam's holy book.

 

In 1996, the Navy commissioned its first Muslim chaplain after recognizing an increase in the number of Muslims in the fleet.

 

...which, of course, means that prior to 1996, non-Muslim chaplains had to minister to Muslim sailors.

 

 

[whitewater]

They may offer some services to all military personnel and they may be required to respect others beliefs, but the primary purpose of an Imam is to minister to Islamic personnel. I sincerely doubt that non-Islamic personel require being led in Islamic prayer or help interpreting the Koran. I also doubt any Catholics could receive Communion from an Imam. So the military isn't really removing clergy and replacing them with generic chaplains, they are trying to accomodate all faiths as much as possible.

 

So the Boy Scouts accomodate most faiths with the exception of atheism. Rather than tear them down for that why not just make sure that alternative organizations like Scouting For All receive a fair shake when it comes to government sponsorship.

 

Why do we always have to look for the lowest common denominator, instead of helping everyone get a leg up?

[OldGreyEagle]

Whitewater, so every base that has a BSA Unit would also sponsor a Scouting for all unit?

 

Interestng...

[berkshirescouter]

Here is a relevent news article

http://www4.army.mil/news/article.php?story=6576

 

ACLU settlement allows DoD to continue Boy Scout support

 

November 18, 2004

 

WASHINGTON (Army News Service, Nov. 18, 2004) -- The partial settlement Nov. 15 of an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit against DoD allows the military to continue supporting the Boy Scouts of America, as long as commands dont officially sponsor Scout units.

 

The ACLU lawsuit, filed in 1999, alleges that the Boy Scouts religiously discriminate because the Scout Oath requires youth swear to do their duty to God and country.

 

The partial settlement requires Pentagon leadership to issue a letter reminding commands of its policy: DoD and its personnel cant sponsor non-federal organizations while in their official capacity.

 

The ACLU also points out the Pentagon donates approximately $2 million to the Boy Scouts for their quadrennial national Jamboree, which will be held this year July 25 through Aug. 3 at Fort A.P. Hill.

 

The Boy Scout Jamboree will still go on as scheduled at Fort A.P. Hill, said Defense Department spokesman Lt. Col. Joe Richard. We are still fully supporting the Boy Scouts. But, we are reminding base commanders and post officials they cant sponsor non-federal organizations in their official capacity. Its not a new policy, but we are reminding people.

 

A Pentagon news release states: The settlement does not prohibit the Defense Department from supporting the Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scout units are permitted to meet on military bases and military personnel are allowed to remain active in Boy Scout programs. Under the very limited settlement, applying the existing policy, the Defense Department may not officially sponsor Boy Scout units and personnel may not sponsor Boy Scout units in an official capacity. [This policy] prohibits official sponsorship to all private organizations, not just the Boy Scouts.

 

The ACLU said the Boy Scouts policy violates the religious freedoms of those who dont wish to swear to a religious oath. And, the governments relationship with the Boy Scouts directly links it with the Boy Scouts discrimination.

 

Bob Bork, a Boy Scouts of America spokesman, said the Boy Scouts is a multi-religious organization, not a Christian-only group. He said they recognize just about every religion. But, he acknowledged, the Boy Scouts require a belief in a god, so atheists are not allowed to join.

 

The settlement does not prohibit off-duty government employees from sponsoring Boy Scout troops on their own time, officials said. They said the Boy Scouts will still also have access to any military facilities currently available to other non-governmental organizations.

 

Aside from this weeks agreement, the full lawsuit is still pending and is in the hands of U.S. District Court Judge Blanche Manning. In the lawsuit, the American Civil Liberties Union claims the Pentagon and the Housing and Urban Development Department violated the First Amendments establishment clause by spending appropriated funds to support the Boy Scouts.

 

The national Boy Scout Jamboree takes place every four years at Fort A. P. Hills 76,000-acre installation, which has served as the site since1981. The Boy Scouts use approximately 3,000 acres of land house the some 40,000 scouts and leaders who attend the event.

 

Engineers construct support facilities, Signal Soldiers establish communication nodes most support of the jamboree is training that helps Soldiers when they deploy to combat zones, an Army spokesman said.

 

(An story written by by Chris Walz for the Pentagram newspaper was the foundation of this article.)

[scoutingagain]

Whitewater asked, "So the Boy Scouts accomodate most faiths with the exception of atheism. Rather than tear them down for that why not just make sure that alternative organizations like Scouting For All receive a fair shake when it comes to government sponsorship."

 

So with the Federal Government running record deficits, you want to open up another Government entitlement program to sponsor private youth organizations? Sounds like a very liberal idea to me.

 

Whatever happend to the idea that a Scout pays his own way?

 

Folks think about this,

 

The same Constitution that prevents the Government from providing direct sponsorship of private groups that lawfully discriminate, also assures the right of the BSA to set it's own membership standards. Absent that protection, there are State, County and local governments that could conceivably enact legislation requiring BSA units to admit Gays and Atheists or outlaw their existence, and some probably would.

 

SA

[fgoodwin]

Merlyn_LeRoy writes:http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/requirements.jsp

...

CHAPLAIN REQUIREMENTS

c. Sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army.

...

 

Note "able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army."

 

Also note that I said either the chaplain has to do it, OR get someone who will.

 

Merely refusing to give communion would be dereliction of duty. His main job is facilitate the free exercise of religion for all the soldiers, not just the soldiers of his denomination.Merlyn, I don't believe your conclusion follows from the requirement listed.

 

I can see how a Catholic Chaplain may not prohibit a Muslim soldier (for example) from praying, but the Army regulation you cite can hardly be read to force the Catholic Chaplain to read Muslim prayers or otherwise worship Allah, just because there is no Imam on the base to serve as the Muslim soldier's clergyman. The Muslim soldier can "freely" exercise his religion without forcing the Catholic to also worship as a Muslim.

 

Similarly, the Catholic Clergyman should be allowed to freely exercise his religion, without being forced to don the robes of a Muslim cleric.

 

Fred Goodwin

Alamo Area Council

 

[acco40]

Guys, you are making this way too complicated. Let's say I'm a Presbyterian Chaplain and a brave dying Catholic soldier requests that viaticum (his last rights) are administered. Being a non-Catholic, I can't administer this ritual. As an Army Chaplain, my duty is to try and accomodate his wish - not just ignore him because he is of a different faith than I am. If I am unable to find a solution to this problem, my task would be to try and comfort this soldier the best I can. No clergy is being asked to violate his religions teachings.

[evmori]

Sounds like all that ended up happening here was nothing! Once again Merlyn didn't disclose all the facts of the case or even know what they were! Shouldn't surprise anyone!

 

I would chalk this one up as a win for the BSA! Wonder what the ACLU will try next!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Ok, I have now read this complete argument, 8 pages along with the name calling.

1. Merlyn comes forth with what sounds to be a large explosion, 'So, no more BSA units charted by military bases anymore', hurrah for somebody!

2. Homeland Security rushes in to to recover the survivors and find the culprits, 'But, all units can still use the same facilities as before.' !!

3. Several by-standers note that things will change but not really, 'Because all units will get other sponsors on all of the same bases.', huh?

4. The populace gives it their own twist, 'It may have to do with discrimination but it really should be about homosexuality.', huh what?

5. The court gives it one more turn, 'Now, the seats on the ship will be moved about to make it look different because everyone agreed to fight no more.' What?

6. The ACLU gets it usual kick in the pants for its' involvement into matters that should never concern them or anyone else ever!

7. The whole thing turns into another Seinfeld episode, much to do about nuthing.

 

or is it?

 

What about the 2 to 5 million lost for the Jamboree? Is the BSA now going to change locations to private land in various parts of the country like it did years ago and somebody else pays? Or will the money come out of a different pocket but the same pair of pants?

 

This has got to be what progress looks like.

 

 

FB

 

[Hunt]

From the Army's field manual for chaplains: "Chaplains perform religious support when their actions are in accordance with the tenets or beliefs of their faith group." In other words, a chaplain will not perform a rite or say a prayer if it is inconsistent with the tenets of his faith group, i.e., a Catholic chaplain will not offer Communion to a non-Catholic. Since the situation raised was an atheist who asked for Catholic communition, it the chaplain would also not have the obligation to provide somebody who would provide this service. Thus, when Merlyn suggests that the contrary is true, he is "lying" (by his definition of lying, anyway), and thus Merlyn is a "liar" (by his definition of liar, anyway).

(Can you tell I don't like being called a liar?)

On DOD's statement--if it really has been established policy that military units are not supposed to sponsor Scouting units, it's not a "lie" to say DOD doesn't sponsor units, even if some military bases have violated the DOD policy. But Merlyn likes to label people who disagree with him as "liars." But as I've revealed above, he too is a a "liar." Also, his pants are on fire.

[fgoodwin]

Hunt, thanx for your research. Can you post a link to the chaplain manual?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

I type things like:

 

Chaplains are required to serve the needs of all soldiers, and if they personally can't (for whatever reason), find someone who can.

 

or

 

But the EO chaplain is REQUIRED to serve the Lutheran soldier's request for communion, or get someone who will,

 

...but nobody can apparently see those second parts.

[Hunt]

But Merlyn, you said that a Catholic chaplain would have to find somebody to give communion to an atheist soldier. I don't think that's the truth, and thus it's a ... well, you know.

 

(fgoodwin: I found the link by Googling, but I didn't note what it was.)

 

Let me make my point clear to you, Merlyn. It's a lousy argumentative technique to accuse somebody of "lying," even if you think they have misrepresented your viewpoint. In addition to lousy technique, it's downright stupid to do it to somebody who has generally agreed with your main points. That kind of tactic, and your general approach, confirms that you have no interest in convincing anybody here of your points, but you just like to gloat when some court decision goes the way you like. In fact, your meanspirited and insulting tactics make it harder for those of us who are willing to seriously discuss these issues--so I would suggest that if you really care about inclusiveness in the BSA, you should bail out of this and any other similar newsgroup and leave the discussion to thoughtful, well-meaning, and courteous people on the inside. What you're doing now is hurting your own cause--it sure has with me. I've been trying to think up arguments for the proposition that military units can sponsor scouting units, especially when they are overseas.