Pentagon agrees to tell US bases not to sponsor Boy Scout units

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Current military regulations are inconsistent; some read "discrimination" while others read "unlawful discrimination." But by reading what the regulations prohibit (e.g. you can have a club that focuses on a particular ethnic group or culture, as long as membership is still open to everyone, and clubs focusing on other ethnic groups and cultures are treated equally), it seems that the military bans discrimination by private organizations on base that would be legal discrimination by private organizations off base - anyone can form a private organization that only allows people of Irish ancestry to be members, but if you're on a military base, you can't restrict membership only to people of Irish ancestry.

 

So I read it to mean "discrimination", not "unlawful discrimination", and if the US military won't allow private groups on military bases to exclude, say, Catholics from membership, they have to apply the same standard to the Boy Scouts and not allow them on base as long as they exclude atheists from membership. Equal treatment, and all that.

 

But we'll have to see what the military actually does.

[LovetoCamp]

http://www.defenselink.mil/faq/comment.html

 

Use this link to ask Sec. Rumsfeld to do everything he can to not cave to the ACLU and to continue support Scouting for the military families serving both here and overseas.

[acco40]

Can I use that link to ask Mr. Rumsfeld to give Mr. Powell his job?

[evmori]

Keep going Merlyn. Just adding fuel to my fire! And it is getting cold here!

 

Typical of an ACLUer. Declare the person questioning your motives inept therefore eliminating the need to address their valid question.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

Merlyn, you didn't answer my question, which was: "So spell it our Merlyn--do you think that military bases should provide access to groups that discriminate?"

If you won't clearly state your position, please don't accuse me of "lying" when I try to interpret what you've said.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Not on US military bases, no. They aren't public accommodations, and the military has a legitimate government interest in preventing religious discrimination on their bases. And the Boy Scouts should be treated the same as any other organization that practices religious discrimination.

[acco40]

Here is a weird take on this issue - The USA (that's US Army) has Chaplains of many faiths as commissioned officers. Although these chaplains will "administer" to those of different faiths, the chaplains themselves represent particular faiths, they are not non-denominational. Now these faiths are, by definition, discriminatory (most). Does the ACLU or anyone else see a problem with that? I don't, but you can see how the plot thickens.

 

And Merlyn, I'm confused with your statement implying that I did not read your post or the press release very carefully. It stated that the ACLU has "raised concerns" and that "decisions are pending" with respect to Jambo. My question was what impact this decision will have on the 2005 Jamboree. It still stands.

[cajuncody]

Wow. I have never heard of the Cub Scouts being put in the same catagory as the KKK. And I am from the south too! It amazes me.

Kristi

[Its Me]

 

 

I am getting here late [Merlyn wrote "preventing religious discrimination on their bases"] what religion does the BSA discriminate against?

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

acco40, you seemed to think I was opposed to this agreement (when I'm not) and the press release said that court action on Jamboree support is still pending, so *this* particular decision doesn't affect it, but a court ruling is supposedly coming "soon."

 

As for lawsuits over military chaplains, the only active one I know about is a class-action suit against the Navy by a group of evangelical Protestants.

 

[KoreaScouter]

I'm not going to debate the legal obfuscation and language parsing associated with this issue; others have the corner on that -- you can be 100% right on the law and still 100% wrong. I can only comment from the standpoint of a career military guy, with 2 kids in Scouting, for whom this hits very close to home.

 

Military parents are acutely aware of the extra burdens on our kids (constant moves, deployment-related absences, overseas culture shocks, etc) because of the professions we've chosen. We bend over backwards to do everything we can so that our kids have as "normal" a childhood as the typical American child. Whether it's school, sports, scouts, clubs, what have you, no matter where we are, we try desperately to make it as "American" as possible. There are many places we serve where that's incredibly difficult, but we do our best, always with the help of selfless volunteers, because there's often no option outside the gate -- we have to do it ourselves or it doesn't get done. Now this; as if it wasn't tough enough before. Didn't we just have an election whose outcome was based in part on morals and faith? Further evidence the inmates are running the asylum...

 

That said, I'm not as alarmed about this as some may be. Most of those units that serve military kids are sponsored by booster clubs, wardrooms, ladies auxiliaries, etc., and the vols are doing it on their own time. We'll find ways to deliver Scouting to our kids that won't run afoul of the lawyers. Our kids are amazingly resilient, despite and partially because of the world they live in. If the American public knows anything about us, they should know that we're incredibly resourceful, tenacious, goal-oriented, and dedicated to the principles that made our country free. We'll trust in our God and in the United States of America (okay, a direct lift from the Code of Conduct, but it would seem to be applicable here...). Keep the faith; we're going to be fine.

 

KS

 

 

 

 

[whitewater]

Merlyn,

 

It sounds like Hunt correctly interpreted your intentions and yet you said "Hunt lies:" That doesn't seem to be very fair- Hunt appears to be one of the most level-headed and open-minded people here.

 

How do you feel about military chaplains? It seems like they are even more discriminatory toward atheism than the Boy Scouts and yet your tax dollars are paying for them too.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

whitewater writes:

It sounds like Hunt correctly interpreted your intentions and yet you said "Hunt lies:"

 

Nope, Hunt said "Merlyn and his friends will try to push the point further, to argue that government facilities can't offer access to groups that discriminate."

 

I have never said this, nor is this my position, yet Hunt says this is something I "will" try to do. For one thing, it's well-established law that many government facilities (like public forums owned by the government) MUST be open to ALL groups; if a town has a public forum in front of city hall, the town council can't just allow groups they like to use it.

 

How do you feel about military chaplains? It seems like they are even more discriminatory toward atheism than the Boy Scouts and yet your tax dollars are paying for them too.

 

While I think chaplains should be handled differently, current laws on chaplains require that they address the needs of ALL soldiers, including atheists. Chaplains function as morale officers and duties such as suicide prevention and grief counseling, and are an unofficial channel for cutting through red tape. The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers is advocating for secular humanist chaplains, and there is at least one offering his services unofficially:

http://www.maaf.info/polchap.html

(they understandably dislike being insulted by chaplains who repeat the old "no atheists in foxholes" lie)

[Hunt]

Yes, Merlyn, I feel I must insist on an apology from you, since my summary of your position was, in fact, the truth: you do advocate the removal of scouting from all military bases.

[Its Me]

Hey Merlyn why stop at Military bases. Why not continue on and ban BSA from national forest land?