What to do when you it is not what you expected.

[Dan Williamson]

kwc57,

Nothing personal with Dutch and I apoligize for sounding like I was attacking him personally. I do not like the notion of quitting if all is not square or advising someone to do so. I tend to meet issues head on and upfront. If I was snubbed I would have been 'in-your-face" obnoxious about being heard. I will not tolerate being ignored. When I see something that I know is not right I tend to confront the person doing the wrong and put them on notice. So in his case I would have put the SM and Advancement chair on notice to fix the problem, given them a reasonable time to fix it, then take it higher if not corrected. Wins me a lot of friends and influences a lot of enemies but I dislike seeing boys set up for failure because of poor leadership. I also dislike the notion that says things like merit badges should NEVER be done in meetings. What if the boy leadership and the troop at large requests an occasional block of instruction on a particular merit badge. NEVER is a long time. And don't speak from one side of the mouth saying a unit is boy led and in the next breath say we NEVER teach merit badges at a troop meeting...(even if the boys request it?). They are not asking to sanction the burning down of the scout hut to earn their Firem Chip. Illogical thoughts these....I can't connect the dots. I also, obviously, have a problem with the "Eagle ain't important" notion or ever how you want to phrase it...or rank at all isn't important. How about, therefore, the quest for Eagle or any other rank? Is that important? Sounds like part of PERSONAL GROWTH to me. The world outside Boy Scouts thinks Eagle is important. Have you seen a college application lately? How about an Army ROTC scholarship($17,00 value)application? Nearly as much space is devoted to Boy Scout accomplishments on the applications I dealt with as all other extracurricular activities combined. Now why is that? Because the boy has already shown the college or Army, by virtue of accomplishment, that he can set a goal and see it through to fruition over an extended period of time. He gutted it out and didn't quit. Sounds good to me. If you tell the boys in your troop about the applications do you think they can connect the dots? I have found out that they are not stupid, just short. There seems to be some angst over advancement as part of the program. Like it's a bad thing. Like getting merit badges is a bad thing. Say that they are important and you will be labeled as an "Eagle Factory" proponent in a New York minute. And of course you, obviously, have lowered the standards of the badges. Giving them away you are. (Line up boys. This week I'm giving you the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge because you learned the Pledge of Allegince.) Not part of a total program, but a bad thing. Other more esoteric things seem to be MORE important...not balanced with advancement but MORE important. I hear it all the time and it's getting old...(of course they'll come back and say "That's not what I said or meant"). Advancement is one of the eight methods of Scouting, and with the possible exception of uniforms, draws the most fire on this forum. Why I ask? What's wrong with a balanced program. I don't believe the eight methods are prioritized with one being more important than the others. So why does a troop that wants it's boys to advance draw so much attention? I haven't figured it out yet. Probably NEVER will.

So. I'll start over. Dutch, I apoligize for any comments I made that you perceived as an attack on you personally and seek your forgiveness. My advice to you is this. DON'T QUIT THAT TROOP. Get in there and help fix it. Step up to the plate and do a Reggie Jackson (one of the great moments in baseball). Get all the training you can get including Woodbadge, commissioner university, whatever, figure out what right looks like and fix it. Do the right thing not the easy thing. The other boys need guys like you also. Don't leave them stranded. It might take you a while but stay the course. Don't give up...and never let 'em see you sweat.

[Hanaski]

Never in my life have I read such a brash, arguably offensive, generalized attack on Scouting programs.

 

Dan, whomever or whatever you 'see' when you speak of this generic scoutmaster, it sounds like you have been accused of being a mill of some form or another in the past. I think it is in appropriate to bring that type of vindictive conscious flow to the forums, especially in response to a legitimate concern about a (not your) troop that operates somewhere near the twilight zone.

 

You make subtle claims that the generic scoutmaster, which from your post can only be taken to mean one that uses terms like "Eagle mill" to describe what his troop is not, wears uniform knots he has not earned and has not attended leadership training. Your ramblings continue to include fair weather outing practices, attendance percentages, and--of all things--the Scoutmaster's usual attire--what for!?

 

After dutch chose to expose his and his wife's personal lives, you ignore that even with the best intentions not everyone has the time or energy to execute the hostile takeover you proclaim as a viable solution. I honestly wonder what kind of work ethic you instill in your Scouts.

 

Your generalizations, assumptions and conclusions are out of line. They have no place here. You can be assured that I would *never* send a scout to your troop, simply based on your need to attack the anonymous abyss of bad Scouting to build up your own program. And never is a long time.

[sctmom]

I sit here and ponder which has the best end result....

 

my son enjoys scouting, summer camp, does a few merit badges that he is interested in with his buddies, maybe picks up a hobby or a career interest, gets some self confidence because he slept in a tent for a week in the rain, maybe one day decides he should go for Eagle, finds out what badges are required, gets frustrated working on some of those required badges, gives up, tries again? gets Eagle? doesn't get Eagle? .....

 

OR

 

the troop says "your goal is Eagle in 4 years, show up and you will be there". He never sets a goal for himself in those four years. He has some good times. He thinks "is being an Eagle one of those things that is good for you, like eating yucky vegetables?" Wonders why he is doing this..........

 

 

 

I have found this thread interesting and have taken some of the advice to apply to my own situation. It's a shame that troops like the one Dutch describes exist.

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I'm not sure where Dan was headed with the Scoutmaster Generic message, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. A week or so ago, someone on the board made the comment that the "rant" key on the computer had been stuck. Seems to be a pretty common bug around here, so maybe that was Dan's problem.

 

But beyond that, Dan's last post, and the one three posts ago (actually I took a break for dinner, so I may be behind now) about striking a balance between advancement and other elements of the program sounded very reasonable to me. I don't understand why some seem to consider merit badge work at troop meetings to be the hallmark of a dysfunctional troop.

 

Admittedly, I since I work with cubs, I haven't had Boy Scout level training and my personal experience in Scouts is 30 years old. Back in the day, there wasn't the emphasis on boy-led troops. There was no such thing as a patrol leader council and there was no doubt that our scoutmaster was in charge. Leadership was an important lesson, but so was teamwork, service to others and all the other traits we expect from a good scout. In retrospect, I'd say that teamwork was probably the most sought-after trait, simply because our troop was comprised of a large number of Scouts roughly the same age. As a PL you were a peer among equals rather than being look up to as a leader. A subtle difference, but an important skill all the same.

 

Advancement was a big part our troop's program. Our SM's motto was "Work the Program," by which he meant, you have an advancement trail laid out before you, follow it. Troop meeting time was spent in patrols planning campouts or practicing skills for competitive camporees, and older scouts were expected to help younger ones learn basic skill. But there was always the opportunity to work on a rank requirement or merit badge you needed.

 

I know, I know. Things have changed in 30 years. The program has evolved and for the better. I'm not saying the way we did it was superior. I'm only saying, as I believe Dan is, that there is a balance between leadership development by way of boy-led units and everything else.

 

 

[Bob White]

TwoCubDad,

You might be interested in knowing that except for the addition of the New Scout Patrol Method some 10 to 15 years ago (not positive on the date) the boy leader emphasis known as the Patrol Method has existed virtually unchanged since BP created it 92 years ago.

 

I was a scout in the 60s in a boy lead troop. We had monthly Patrol Leader Council meetings, bi-monthly patrol meetings, boy lead troop meetings, patrol hikes and campouts, when the troop camped each patrol had their own separate campsite and all the adults camped in their own site. Our patrol and others in the troop had remained intact for over 25 years continious years.

 

So there is nothing unique about it and I can guarantee you it existed in the 70s when you were a scout because I was a unit leader at the time and we used it then.

 

Your experience just proves that for as long as there has been a patrol method there have been troop leaders that did not use it.

 

As far as why some of us dislike the use of merit badge courses as a troop meetings..its because the scouting program that we agreed to learn and follow says that it is not what troop meetings are for and not how merit badges are supposed to be earned.

 

See the section on group instruction of Merit Badges pages 27,28 of the Advancement Committee policies and procedures manual#33088D.

 

There are two divergent philosophies at work and only one follows the methods and mission of scouting. You can drive scouts to Eagle assuming that with advancement will come character growth. Units that do this usually focus on only two methods of the Boy Scout program, Advancement and Uniform.

 

Or you can focus on character growth as a stimulus encourage scouts to learn the skills that will create advancement. Leaders that follow this track tend to use a balance of all the methods of Boy Scouting; Advancement, uniform, the outdoors, the patrol method, adult association, scouting ideals,personal growth, and leader development.

 

So it's important to understand that the people who are dissing the use of troop meeting as merit badge factories are actually following the program as it is supposed to be.

 

This is a great topic and needs to be aired out so that new leaders can understand the importance of going to training and following the BSA program rather than create a train ride to Eagle.

 

I would our program and efforts be measured by a First Class scout who had principles based on the Oath and Law, than I would by an Eagle who who had the badges but not the values of the scouting program to guide his decisions in life.

 

Bob White

[red feather]

"Eagle factory" Interesting term, some troops that I know of turn out Eagles 4-5 at a time. Knowing some of these scouts their scouting skills are sometimes good and sometimes not so good.

 

Had a look at at an old troop roster and was surprised when the names were looked at the 21 out of the 43 boys in the troop at the time had earned their Eagle. Set me to thinking.

 

We are a boy led troop with a adult umbrella and cushion. The boys learn cooking, camping, survival skills, and all of the rest of the skills that scouting is known for. But they earned the badges needed because it was part of the program. Yes, we had merit badges as part of the troop meeting on occasion when it was beneficial to the counselor to do so ( at their request) and was of a quality that nothing was lost in the earning of the badge this way. The rest of the badges were earned by the scouts themselves on their own (and parents) time.

 

I guess that with the percentage of Eagles of that group we could be called a factory, but it is our scouts having pride in being scouts that have made it so.

 

Example of quality of scouting. Recent band trip out of town and overnight, a band member got sick. Who stepped up to help? Three band members who are Eagles from our troop.They comforted the member and got assistance. No one else. Looking at who puts in extra time to put away equipment it is the same Eagles and other scouts in the band who do it.

 

Given the chance the boys will amaze us, if we let them. Dutch, if you want the program to change, dive in. The troop I am in was not the troop I started with. Same number, different attitude. Others may follow your lead or attitude. But you will not know unless it is tried. Rememeber, 'lead, follow or get out of the way.'

 

Soap box just broke.

 

yis

[Bob58]

Great thread!

a coula' points that I know might be taken the wrong way. Different parts of the country face different problems.

(1) Every Unit needs parents who are commited to their children and the program. It's possible that some of the parents that Dutch & his wife have talked to don't realize the true potential of scouting. (Remember we know that we're not the BabySitters... do the other parents?)

(2) Also, every troop should have a unit commissioner who is close enough to the particular chartering organization to be able to honestly (and caringly) assist the leadership. Dutch, you might be too new to the unit to have the answer but, is there an "old hand" who could serve in this capacity & work for change? (Former Scoutmasters or other leaders who are remembered as part of "the good old days") Does the troop leadership participate in Roundtables & other official training opportunities... a good commissioner can facilitate this.

(3) Does the Chartering Organization know how the troop opreates? What is their commitment to the program? Each year our Council publishes the BSA & Charter Partners letters of commitment in the council paper and has occassionally succeded in getting them into the smaller local papers as well. Will the leadership of the chartering organization lead the charge to refocus a youth group that is not living up to its potential?

(4) It sounds as if the troop could be a winner. District/Council should not be allowed to let this unit slip through the cracks. (Either by permitting the advancement or by letting it fold.)

Bob

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Bob58,

 

Major problems to your points are that In most of the BSA Unit Commissioning is broken. It has been broken for decades, (Many at the National level know it they just don't know how to fix it) but thats another thread. In addition the role of the District and Council committees do not allow them to go in and fix units that operate outside the spirit and mission of scouting, we can only interceed when policies are violated. Until then we can teach proper methods to those who attend training and Roundtables, we can counsel through the few active commissioners there are. We can create circumstances and events where they can see units that are scouting correctly.

 

But by and large we must rely on the character and honor of the volunteers that the Charter Organizations select to be the leaders to follow the actual program that is in the handbooks and not create their own personal version of the program.

 

The scouting method is hard work. It is hard to teach scouts how to plan menus, shop, plan gear, make and agenda as to when to cook and who does what. It is easy for the adults to plan a meal shop, collsct the money an tell the scouts who will help the adults cook for the whole troop.

We all see these kinds of troops at one event or another. But which way develops the skills and character of the scouts.

 

The problem is once a bunch of adults develop the easy way, habits get formed. So that even when the leadership changes as new people join they follow the easy way beacause that's how they do it in this troop and hey, it's so easy.

 

Merit Badge factories are easy. You don't have to consider the individual interests of the boy, you don't have to mess with kids coming up all the time asking for diffent books or different blue cards. You know every month which merit badge will be earned so ordering awards is a breeze.And if you need to know if you are delivering the scouting promise you don't need to take time to look into the heart of the scout, all you need to do is look at the eagle tote board to know if YOU are a success.

 

The Eagle award was designed as a personal challege for a scout to see the mountain top and choose his own trail to the top. It was not designed for him to follow bread crumbs up a path that the adults cleared for him themselves. Sure either way the view is the same, but the strength gained by the climb is different.

 

We are supposed to be teachers and counselors not tour guides.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sctmom]

I thought a boy's advancement through scouting was to be a personal one. That each boy advances at his own rate. My son is not as mature as other's his age. I know other boys have different interests than he does. When the academic type merit badges are done in troop meetings, my son isn't interested and doesn't really get it. I'm not saying that 11 year olds should not be allowed to work on those badges but that the ones who are ready for them should do them and let the others mature before doing it. I know my son and some of his friends are not ready to work on Eagle required badges. They just don't have the brain wiring to understand the concepts of some of those badges. I also know a few of the boys who DO understand it. I know one young man who became an Eagle in 7th grade. Recently talked to this boy, now in 8th grade, and it is easy to forget he is only 13/14 years old. He's an exception.

 

So how can you teach merit badges on a regular basis (especially academic ones) in troop meetings and run off some good scouts?

 

Bob White, Thanks for your postings.

[Twocubdad]

But, sctmom, the problem there is not that they boys are working on a merit badge, per se, but that the entire troop is being shoe-horned into one activity. That's no different from the thread a week or two ago about a troop where the PLC decided to plan a cold-weather campout and excluded everyone below first class. All the other boys spent weeks with nothing to do. In my old troop, there were always multiple activities to choose from.

 

Bob wrote "There are two divergent philosophies at work," one emphasizing advancement and the other emphasizing character growth through a balance of all eight program methods.

 

But if those two philosophies form one end and the middle of a continuum, the other end of that line emphasizes boy-led leadership to the exclusion of other methods. I see that in some of the local troops. In those troops, I don't see the adult coaching and counseling you mentioned. I see younger boys being left behind, ignored or sometimes worse, by the older boy leaders. And I see very little advancement.

 

I absolutely agree with you that units should use all eight methods of Scouting, including adult association. But what I read on this board is that boy-led equals a great program, and advancement mill equals a broken troop. Like most things in life, I don't think it's that simple.

 

I appreciate the discussion here. It seems the quality of debate on the board has been bumped up significantly in the past few weeks. I'm not trying to pick a fight or start an argument. This is something I'm sincerely trying to learn and understand.

 

 

[Bob White]

There is no denying that boy lead has its own set of problems when you do not follow the program.

 

For some boy lead means abdicating the aadult responsibilities and that is not the scouting program.

 

Probably the simpliest way to describe it is train the scouts how to do and decide, then never do anything that a boy can do or decide on his own. Now there are many nuances that allow this learning process to take place AND THAT is what the methods of scouting are all about. It can be done by anyone and yet is not used by so many.

 

The real scouting program is quite elegant in its execution since it uses the social and emotional characteristics of boys at various ages as the structure for its activities and methods. Because of that, following the scouting methods is natural to the youth. The hitch is since it is based on how a youth is built it is unnatural to the adult leader.

 

So the result is that many leaders try to change the program to meet the adult needs and characteristics and try to get the boy to fit the wrong mold.

 

Then others try to change themselves to fit the youth's characteristics and that is not the correct method either.

 

The scouters who are the most effective and reflective of the scouting movement accept that youth are different and need time to grow to adult character traits, so they have the scouts operate the activities at the scouts own levels. Then in the background, they interact with the scouts through individual and group counseling and leadership training with as adult role models.

 

The third way requires the adult to accept the scouts characteristics and needs while encouraging them toward the principles of character and purpose modeled in the scout Oath and Law.

 

BW

[sctmom]

Twocubdad said:

"But, sctmom, the problem there is not that they boys are working on a merit badge, per se, but that the entire troop is being shoe-horned into one activity. "

 

You are right, that is better description of what is happening.

[Zahnada]

I don't know if this is in line with BSA policy or not, but my personal belief about rank and merit badges is that their purpose is to offer a tangible of a boy's achievements in scouting. Therefore, they represent what was learned but should not become what was learned. A fine line yes, but I shall attempt to walk it.

 

When I see a boy with a First Class Scout badge, I make assumptions about him. I assume that he knows basic scout skills (pioneering, orienteering, cooking, etc). I assume that he's also been on several scout outings and has probably been camping and backpacking. I do not assume that he was dragged along to this rank by a parent who quickly signed off requirements regardless of whether he earned it or not.

 

I have similar assumptions about boys wearing all the different ranks. And my assumptions about Eagle Scouts are too long and too many to contain within this post.

 

So therefore, I have no problem with a troop arranging its meetings around scout skills. A knot-tying class is a great meeting plan and then a week later the boy should get the requirement as long as he learned the skill. A meeting on how to be prepared for emergencies can get several requirements signed off on Emergency Preparedness merit badge. No problem.

 

Such meeting orientations are around the skill and not the requirement. While in the books there is no difference, to me there is a huge difference between getting a skill or a knowledge signed off and getting a requirement signed off. One takes more work than the other and one will be remembered longer than the other.

 

When Boy Scouts turns away from the skills and becomes only a means to satisfy requirements to obtain the coveted Eagle, the program is cheapened and sacrificed. The result is to turn scouts into school. Scouts is a program of application. School is a program of theories and ideas. In school, students know that they do not need the information they learn, so they retain it just long enough to pass the final exam and then all is forgotten. This often happens in scouts when the goal of the troop is rank advancement. Merit badges and ranks can quickly become a series of "repeat after me" questions, but with no retention. An amount of competition is then pumped into the program between youth who feel that being a Life Scout makes them more of a person than being Second Class. They don't worry about the skills, just the rank.

 

I think that the 7 years from age 11-18 is more than enough time to earn the rank of Eagle. And I also feel that it should take every one of those 7 years if the rank is to be appreciated by the boy. After 7 years, the boy will know that he earned it.

 

From my years in troops and by working on JLTC, I have seen many things. I have seen Eagles at the age of 14 who can't tie a bowline. I have seen Eagles become complacent once they obtain their rank and slowly fade away. They had nothing left to prove because they felt they had achieved scouting's only goal.

 

I was actually on the path to a fairly early Eagle. I was Life after a few years. I was a step away from Eagle. That step ended up taking over 3 years as I was almost eternally a Life scout. Within those 3 years, I learned more from scouting than from all my time before and throughout Cubs. Basically, those 3 years where I went no where in rank were my most active in scouts because everything had a purpose outside of Eagle. I actually relearned everything I learned on my way to Life because I was a Life scout who couldn't cook, tie knots, or use a compass.

 

To me, rank advancement is inconsequential if it means that no learning is taking place. Stretch scouting out as long as possible for your boys.

[SR540Beaver]

Zahnada,

 

I had to chuckle when I read your post. I understand what you are saying. My 9 year old Webelo is taking Tae Kwon Do. He started in Nov. 2001. They do rank tests for belts each 3 months. He instead has put himself on a 6 month schedule. At this age, once they work from white to orange to green to purple, their instructor holds them there until they are at least 14 or 15. In fact, after purple belt, testing is invitational only when the instructor thinks you are ready. The higher belts are too advanced for a kid under that age. They don't have the strength, power or maturity to understand martial arts beyond that level. Meanwhile, there are other schools out there who pump out an 8 year old black belt in about 2 years. At tournaments, our instructor sees all these grade school kids running around in their black belts and just shakes his head in disbelief. Martial arts is not unlike scouts. It teaches responsibility, confidence, perseverance, integrity, honor, etc. While many grade school kids may have learned the technical side of doing a form, they don't yet understand all of the character building aspects that comes from years of hard work. Many martial arts schools are like Eagle mills. They think that the black belt is the ultimate goal without realizing that the path of getting there is the most important aspect of attaining the rank. I'm proud that my son already understands that and is pacing himself to make sure he has really learned what he needs to know to attain his rank before testing. I hope he makes Eagle someday, but I hope he savors the path and maximizes the learning on the way.

[scoutldr]

I attended our first "University of Scouting" yesterday...in the "Life to Eagle" session, which was otherwise excellent, the instructor suggested that parents should withhold a boy's driver's license until he makes Eagle.

 

One of the hardest things I did as a Scout parent was NOT force my sons to make Eagle...I allowed them to make their own choices and set their own priorities. The result...they both grew up to be fine young men with solid values and problem solving skills. They can cook, wash clothes, make a bed, change their oil, play baseball, survive in the woods, direct a play, play an instrument, have healthy relationships, read and write intelligible English, speak in public, and perform CPR. Were their scouting days for naught because they don't have an Eagle badge in their sock drawer?

 

My younger son, when he was 17 and a Life Scout, said, "you need to make a schedule for me and hold me to some deadlines" (for merit badges and project)...I looked him square in the eye and said, "if that's what it takes for you to make Eagle, then maybe you're not Eagle material." Looking back, I think it hurt his feelings (heaven forbid we should hurt a youth's feelings by letting them have a glimpse of the truth!!!), but he got the message loud and clear that Eagle Scout was not going to be another ticket punch that one gets just for showing up. Before everyone asks, No, he didn't make Eagle...but he chose his OWN path and is living with the results. THAT'S what scouting is all about, in my opinion. When I hear of a young 13 year old Eagle with 50 merit badges, I am not impressed...my heart is filled with sadness that the Movement to which I have dedicated so many years of my life has failed him.