Bring back the draft? Will somebody please check my math?

[packsaddle]

Aaaahhh, DSL.

Trying to get back on topic, I think KoreaScouter's numbers are correct. In further support, I note that some (many?) of our domestic bases that are used for training are already strained by use. My experience only includes Benning, Rucker, Stewart, and Gordon, but long term sustainability of these bases will be made more difficult if we ram so many additional recruits through the same real estate. This is a serious issue because expansion is impossible for some, difficult for others. And there's not much room to build new ones (as if we want that expense anyway). We have designed our forces as professionals, not conscripts, and if we pay them commensurately (as we should), we'll get the quality volunteers that we need.

 

And then I look at my students...and I think of 'Pounder. Some of them are top notch self-starters and they will make good leaders for the future. And then there are some who are working the angles, and could use a little of the "smoke from a DI". But I'm not sure that, for the sake of national defence, we'd want to draft them.

[LovetoCamp]

So Pack you were one of my instructors at Ft. Gordon back in the day? Brrrrrrrrrruuughhhhh. Brings back some memories. I was there in 81-83. The worst memory was that Continental Canning Corp. just down the road out gate 5, every morning, the worst funky smell my poor nose ever suffered through (almost). There was a dive out gate 5 also, The Tap House, whew, what a dive, what a great little dump!!! Friendliest people I can remember. I had basic in Brehm's Barracks on the other side of the PX and movie theatre. Then AIT down in the middle of the brick city, 31M/31N area. Spent the next 18 months in the 385th Sig Co and 67th Sig Bn, taking the SOBC students out for their end of course FTX. Crawled around in a lot of that red Georgia clay. What was the name of the burger joint down South that sells the little sliders like White Castles? They stayed open late and we sure ate a lot of those 2 a.m. post-Broad St. sliders!!! I went from Georgia to Alaska in December. That was sure rude of them.

 

[LovetoCamp]

Pack, just to cure your concerns, those students that get through BCT and AIT somehow, working the angles, are very obvious when they get to their line units. Many of them are in for a rude awakening, they slipped and slid through the revolving door of initial training, but in the units, a slacker is found out oh so fast and is either motivated to get with it, both by their NCOs or with the help of the squad, or he/she is gone, sent home. It took me about a week as a squad leader to really get a feel for a non-hacker. Which of my teams could I place them with, where they could do a job, if the person was really bad, we'd just start writing papers until the officers acted on it. If someone refused to do their job and tried to work the angles as you said, we'd just tell them to report every morning to the 1SG, and he sent them to either guard duty or KP. They weren't around long, let's just say.

[packsaddle]

Gordon, huh? Georgia to Alaska, wow! And they say the Army has no sense of humor. Sorry to disappoint you but I have never instructed on bases (my expertise is in biology), just research on problems they couldn't address on site (I'm good at avoiding UXO). My hat's off to everyone who makes it through our climate under those conditions.

But I am familiar with some unmentionable establishments around there back in the early '70s. I think most of them are gone now. Mostly around the Richmond Hotel (that's gone too). I must have been crazy. H'mm come to think of it.....

 

As for working the angles, I get your point. Nice to know there's a safety mechanism.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[LovetoCamp]

Well, we may have tipped the same waitress!!! That hotel should have been named a zoo. Krystals, was what I was thinking of that sold the little greasy cheeseburgers.

 

I was certain that I would never get away from Augusta, so I submitted request for transfer frequently, please send me to Germany or Korea or Germany or Korea and in front of 250 of my comrades, the CO announces, "SGT Trail Pounder, your wish has come true, your outta here, your going to.........Alaska!" All 250 people started laughing. But, ha! The joke was on them. The Alaskan Army was the best kept secret in the military. What a great two years that was. We trained in the cold weather. We had all the right gear to stay warm. But the 4 months of good weather, we got in a nice softball season, salmon and trout fishing, hunting, weekend-long daylight picnics, trips to Denali. Our CO pitched for our softball team and our 6'5" 1SG played, of course, first base. The XO played left field. So after our 1 pm work formation, we'd go back to work and then have softball practice from 2-4:30, then get back into uniform for the 5:00 pm formation. Learned never never slide into second base on permafrost. I still have the scars.

[OldGreyEagle]

We went into Iraq because of 17, count them, 17 UN resolutions were passed asking, requesting, demanding, however the proper diplomatic way you are supposed to say it, that the weapons inspectors be alowed to do their jobs. The US, Bush, was not alone in thinking Iraq was a threat.

 

How many UN resolutions have Iran had leveled against it? How many times has North Korea refused UN weapons inspectors entrance to their country to carry out inspections that were agreed to in a peace treaty after invading and being removed from another country. Whats that? The UN hasn't passed any resolutions against Iraq? North Korea hasn't invaded a neighbor? Oh yeah thats right. Before invading another country to protect itself, the US is supposed to get international approval. Perhaps 18 UN resolutions would have been better.

 

Iran and North Korea are as scary as the Cuban missle crisis, and I remember praying that october that the world wouldn't end until at least next monday as the Bears were on TV that sunday and Uncle Jim was comming over to watch the game with us.

 

But iraq had shown much more provacation that Iran and North Korea put together. Saddam used gas against Iran, not Iran against Iraq. Saddam gassed his own people, North Korea hasnt done that yet.

 

There were reasons to depose Saddam, some didnt pan out, but the reasons to invade Iraq were not made up, they had a foundation.

[acco40]

Not exactly draft related but FYI:

 

In a recent bill, additional spending is earmarked for a 20,000-man increase in the Army and 3,000-man jump in the Marines. Meanwhile, presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry has promised an even greater boost in troop strength if he is elected. Adding and maintaining a higher number of active duty military professionals will be expensive, and in the coming years defense giants may have a harder time getting some high-tech weapons systems funded as manpower grows. (Source: Motley Fool)

 

 

[eisely]

The adequacy of the headcount of the armed services for the tasks before them is a legitimate issue. I for one think that the active duty services should be increased. However, a renewed conscription is not necessary and not the way to get there.

 

This whole business of the fairness of the way the burden of military service is borne is, in my mind, a completely phony issue. Minorities are not over represented in the MOS's most likely to get shot at. The military is a great way up the social ladder for a lot of folks with otherwise limited prospects.

 

Forcing people to serve against their will is a form of discriminatory tax that should be used only as a last resort. I remember a quote from Milton Friedman in a debate about ending the draft back in the 70's. I think General Westmoreland was on the other side of the debate advocating a continued draft. Westmoreland posed the question, "Do you want to be defended by an army of mercenaries?"

 

Friedman retorted, "Would you rather be defended by an army of slaves?"

 

Mercenaries is of course a harsh term. While some people who serve may be motivated primarily by pay and benefits, I think most of the volunteers are more motivated by a sense of duty and patriotism.

[LovetoCamp]

I would have done it for free. Just needed a couple bucks for the weekends!!!

 

I do recall several guys who joined with large families who were just plain dirt poor. They got a four bedroom apartment, pay, health care, food money, food stamps, utilities, PX and commisary. But, BUT, the two I'm thinking of right now, were the most lazy couple of ragbag, rudypoots, lazy sluggos I've ever met. No wonder they couldn't make it on the outside.....come to think of it, they didn't have stellar or long army careers either.

 

I don't know about now, but during my last tour 88-92, we had an army that was taking nobody with a criminal record, nobody without a high school diploma and good scores on the asvab test, and in our unit, we had 0% using illegal substances.

 

So it really wasn't the occupation of last resort by any means. I finished my B.S. while in the army. I paid for books and 10% of the tuition. Our brigade computer smart guy, a jump master parachutist, is now a millionaire living on the coast in South Carolina. I called him Bill Gates with a machine gun. The guys I worked with in Saudi Arabia, 8 senior sergeants, 4 captains, 1 major, 1 LTC, I'd match up against a lot of corporate staffs. If we couldn't outsmart them, we could always out shoot them. The major made General. The captains were electrical engineers. The sergeants knew the equipment better than the civilians that designed it.

 

So, the military may be a step up or a way out for a lot of people, but there is still a lot of performing that goes with it.

[packsaddle]

"I don't know about now, but during my last tour 88-92, we had an army that was taking nobody with a criminal record, nobody without a high school diploma and good scores on the asvab test, and in our unit, we had 0% using illegal substances."

 

In my mind this is the way it ought to be. Men and women of this calibre will be attracted to service if they are compensated sufficiently. This includes recognition as well as money. I think Trail Pounder may be stretching it a little when he said he would have done it for free, though, but I get his point and agree.