Alcohol Policy - Scouts

[pjzedalis]

If I were a Scout and you did the YP route on me and got the Council involved, not only would I be discouraged and quit Scouting... but my parents would likely force me out of Scouting.

 

Some things in BSA regulations is more/less designed to protect the BSA in case any infraction of the law were to be documented and charged against the BSA for condoning such activities.

 

Hence I believe they take the stance that any such activity must be documented with the Council.

 

But I believe the Committee represents the active parents who are concerned enough to attend... so they should really be the first to decide where it goes. Discipline procedures to my understanding are a Committee problem.

 

In my Troop, if someone continuously disregarded the rules despite the Committee's warning, an action of removing them from the Troop was taken. They felt the best way to do this was to THEN discuss the situation with the council/district executive, who could back them up in their decision.

 

I believe the council/district offices are designed to support the Troops, not regulate everything.

 

Phillip(This message has been edited by pjzedalis)

[DeMann]

Did I say it was a YPT violation?

 

No, I said to treat it like one. LIKE one.

 

Let's say you do 'card' the boy- whatever that is. and, next month he does it again. only, this time he gets the keys to the SM's truck and drives it into another tent. HMM.....

 

Do you think some of the adults here are gonna be considered LIABLE? most attorneys will say yes. a lot of juries will too.

 

What I said is that the Scout Executive will guide you through it. I did not say that anybody will get kicked out of scouting, although they just might. Personally, I would be furious with any adult that allowed it to happen, or was too slack in observation to have allowed it to happen. I would consider it a serious risk to my son. and, if the boy was simply given a card (again, I don't know what this means, but it does not lend itself to serious consequences by the sound of it)I would move my son to another troop the next day.

 

Who wants to defend someone who has put a boy at risk? What are you scared of when it comes to talking to the Scout Executive? Are you scared of protecting a boys safety?

 

think about it. The Scout Executive is trained in this sort of thing. And, he probably wants the boys to ALL stay in Scouting and become Eagles.

 

[Katydid]

This is a quote from the Judge presiding over the Michael Jackson case:

 

Judge Melville's penchant for order may arise from a time when his personal life was rather less orderly. He has acknowledged taking his first drink during a Boy Scout trip when he was 11 or 12 years old and quickly beginning a destructive 20-year love affair with alcohol, including drinking and driving in high school, binge drinking in college and indulging to the point of blacking out as a young lawyer in Santa Maria in the 1970's

 

full story http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050228100709990001

[Pint]

Slightly ( very) different experiences to those which i have had through Scouting in the UK with regards to Alcoholic drinks ( Beers/spirits etc)

first of all, Alcoholic Drinks are permitted in UK Scouting ( in compliance with UK law) as long as people dont go over the top.

The UK law on Alcohol is as follows:

Alcoholic Drinks must not be sold to anyone under 18.

Aged from 14 you can order an alcoholic drink as long as its with a meal in a pub or restaurant.

the minimum age is 5 years old ( not that anyones going to prosecute a bunch of 4 year olds for underage drinking anyway)

 

I went from Cubs (8yrs old -10), to Scouts (10 - 15 1/2) then on to Venture Scouts (15 1/2 - 20/21) and then onto various bits an bobs helping out, and now onto an assistant Scout leader.

 

I can remeber on a few Scout camps the leaders having a few beers late night, either on a Bar on the Scout campsite or in the 'mess' tent, nothing wrong, there, as its acepted behaviour.

 

After Scouts i moved onto Venture Scouts, and that age group bridged the 18 year old 'legal to buy alcohol ' age.

most Venture Scout camps had an onsite Bar so that the Venture Scouts could buy a few beers, and other alcoholic drinks.

some of the younger Venture scouts ( who had either bought their own beer, borrowed over 18 bar passes, or both) had a bit to much to drink, and needed assistance getting back to their tents.

Generaly most of the Venture scouts kept an eye out for each other, if someone had had too much, they were persuaded not to have any more.

if someone had gone over the limit, a few words were said the next day.

If someone repeatedly went over the limit ( ie needed physical help getting back to their tents/ were sick in the tent etc), they were told that they wouldnt be welcome on any furthur camps, that was the general policy in the Venture Scout group that I was involved with, and it worked, there was also someone in the group that didnt drink, incase a visit to the hospital would be required in the night, this person was either a Leader or another venture scout picked at random ( ie pulling straws) or someone decided before the camp

 

Most of he people that i know that went through Venture scouts learnt how to treat alcoholic drinks in a sensible way

 

As a Helper/ Assistant leader, I still have a couple of beers at a camp, again in the camp bar, or back at the tent.

usualy after the Scouts have gone to sleep, we stop up for a while have a few beers and discuss how things have gone.

Again there is always someone who doesnt drink much in case a hospital visit is required in the night, and non of the Leader team drinks to excess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tortdog]

Am I the only one who is laughing because "pint" informed us how U.K. scouts can drink a pint?

[Bob White]

If our beer was served at room temparature we would drink a lot less too.

[scoutldr]

A camp bar???

 

As Yakov Smirnoff would say, "What a country!"

 

Eamonn, old chap, ye never clued us in!

[Eamonn]

Yes the UK and Brits do have a different attitude toward alcohol and drinking.

I was reading about the Beer Tents at the Gilwell reunion.

As I have posted I am not against adults enjoying an adult beverage. I however never enjoyed one when I had Scouts in camp. I subscribed to the idea that if I couldn't do without a beer for a couple of weeks then I had a real drinking problem.

The English drinking and driving laws have been toughened up, but a good friend of mine once pointed out that drinking and driving was against the law, however you would only be prosecuted if you had a certain level of alcohol in your blood.

Last time we flew home from England there was a group of BSA scouts flying home, they were wearing T-shirts as were their leaders. The in flight drinks were free and the two leaders were really pounding them down. Not only were they drinking a lot they were mixing all sorts of beer, wine, liquor. Having owned a bar for 17 years I have taken training to be able to see when people are impaired these two were defiantly the worse for wear. Her Who Must Be Obeyed was really shocked and insisted that I go and talk to them. I did speak to them and told them that the example they were setting was not one that was acceptable to the BSA, it wasn't till I explained that Her Who Must Be Obeyed was thinking of contacting their SE, that they decided to take any notice. (They had the Council name on the T-shirt)

I do enjoy a beverage but there is a time and a place and there is never a time or place when Scouts are around.

Eamonn.

 

[Pint]

The example you gave about the leaders on a flight is obviously wrong, as it sets a bad example to the Scouts ( and evyone else around)

 

As for beer and camps in general its usualy no more than a social thing, after they Scouts have gone to bed, we may stop up for a while and have a can of beer while we talk ( quitly) other leaders may visit and are usualy offered a can of beer/glass of wine, purely as a sociable thing to do.

 

their is a huge difference between having a drink (1e 1-2 beers) and getting drunk.

 

On to the current situation thats afecting the Group im involved in regarding Alcohol and Scouts ( all age ranges).

 

Theres been a few changes to Scouting in the UK over the last few years, some of the age ranges have been adjusted, and Venture Scouts are no more, prevoiusly Scouts were between 10 and 15 1/2, Venture Scouts were aged between 15 1/2 to 20/21.

Now its

Beavers age 6-8, Cubs 8-10, Scouts 10-14, Explorer Scouts 14-18, Scout Network 18-25 (6-25 programme)

 

The Venture Scouts have been replaced by Explorers and Network, with Explorers being Under 18, which is the minimum legal age to be sold ( but not to consume) Alcoholic drinks in the UK.

 

The Alcohol policy of some Explorer groups, regarding the Young people drinking differs slightly;

A complete ban on the Explorer scouts having alcohol on a camp, or a 'parental consent' aproach,

I know of one group that has a parental consent aproach, and another that has a complete ban.

 

As for Scouts:

If i was on a camp, and one of the Scouts had some beer/other alcoholic drink, it would be confiscated, and the parents would be informed that its not aceptable for Scouts ( age 10 -14) to bring Alcoholic drinks to camp.

As for Cubs ( 8-10) i would be surprised if it was a problem.

 

As for scout Network, and other Leaders, again they are over 18, so its up to them what they do, and what they drink.

As long as it doesnt case a problem for anyone else then theres no problem, the key thing here being a responsable atitude, and respect for other people.

[scoutingagain]

Wow. I have often thought one of the most popular venues at a summer camp would be the "Scoutmaster's Pub" if one could open one. Now I know one can go to England to find one!

 

SA

[Lynda J]

Where did the alcohol come from? Who brought it?

These are two question I would need to know.

If a boy brought it from home then his parents need to be told. If he bought it somewhere then the police need to know where he purchased it.

 

I would sit down with the boys and their parents and make it very very clear that they are on probation. and any further fractions of the law both Scout and legal will result in being removed from the troop.

I do agree that this is a safety issue. I also agree that it is a YPT issue. If something had happened to not only one of these boys but to any other boy on this outing whose rear do you think would be on the line. The adult responsible for the outing.

 

 

[Pint]

Where did the alcohol come from? Who brought it?

These are two question I would need to know.

 

I Would ask the same questions if i was on a Camp and some scouts had some beer or any other alcoholic drinks stronger than Shandy

 

Again the parents would be informed and that could possibly go three ways:

1 "He/she said it was OK for him/her to take a few cans on camp"

2 "He/she usualy has a beer( or other drink) at the weekend"

3 " he/she took what? he/she didnt ask me"

 

In cases 1 and 2 the Parents would be informed that we dont encourage Scouts to take alcoholic drinks on Scout activities, and could they make sure that on any furthur camps they ( the scout/s) attend , that they dont bring beer ( or anything else alcoholic)

In Case 3 that would take care of itself.

 

As for the legal side of things, theres not much else, other than the above that could be done.

If the young person had smuggled beer/anything else on camp, and they became drunk/disorderly as a result of that, then that would be much more serious, as they would become a safety risk to others and themselves, and they probably would no longer be welcome on any camps.

their future in the Scout Group would also be questioned.

 

The police would not be that interested if that person had bought alcohol from a shop as long as that young person hadnt got drunk/become a hazzard, however if the issue was serious enough, and there was proff of where the alcohol was purchased, then it would be reported to the authorities ( UK Trading Standards) and action would be taken against the Shop that sold the alcohol to an under 18 year old.

 

theres an interesting discusion on Alcohol, Scouts and Camps on the uk.rec.scouting newsgroup which can be accessed

on this link

[Lynda J]

Pint. I don't know where you are from,but in the United States it is against the law for anyone to sell or supply alcohol to a minor (someone under the age of 21). A business caught selling to a minor can lost their liquer license. They can also face jail time. In some cases where parents have allowed kids to drink at parties held in their homes they have been charged with endangerment of a child. In one case the parents lost custody of their children and faced crimnal charges for allowing other kids to drink.

It is against BSA policy to have or consume alcohol on BSA owned property. It is also against BSA policy to consume alcohol while you are in your Scout Uniform.

 

If I ever witnessed an adult drinking at a scout camp, I would immediately contact the Camp Ranger.

Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good drink or glass of wine from time to time. But NEVER NEVER would I EVER consider taking even one drink while I had the responsibility of boys.

[Pint]

Im from the UK, adn i was aware that there are a few differences between how people invovled with Scouting in the UK treat Alchol and Scouting compared to those in the USA.

 

The main age regarding Alchol in the UK is 18, although from what i understand about the Rules in the USA the UK laws are some what different.

In the UK it is Ilegal to knowingly sell alcohol to someone under 18, its also ilegal to sell alcohol to someone if there is a suspicion that that person is buying on behalf of someone who is under 18 ( ie some kids outside the shop may ask someone over 18 to go on and buy them something)

However Suplying alcohol to a minor, such as parents alowing kids to drink at a party, is not a direct offence, as long as they are over 5 years old ( five)

 

As for Drinking in uniform, some of the leaders form my local Group ( myself included ) have been out and about, and in a few pubs whilst in Scout Uniform, there is no problem at all with this.

As for Drinking on camps, when you have young people in your care, the key thing is moderation, and sensible drinking.

We had an incident about a year ago, where one of the Scouts fell out of a tree and broke his arm, we had informed the Scouts that we would be in the Leaders bar if they needed to find us ( as there was a meeting going on in there) Although as we ( the leaders) were well within the UK drink-drive limits (which we stay within when on camp with young people in our care) someone made a quick trip down to the hospital, and the broken arm incident was cleared up, and handled well.

 

The Scouts know that the leaders may stay up and have a quick drink at the end of the day, the parents know that we, the leaders have a drink on camp ( as some of them have been on camps themsleves as helpers and bought a few cans up)

 

the important thing is sensible drinking, and even though some atitudes may differ, drinking to excess while on a camp and in cahrge of Young people ( ie Scouts) is clearly inapropiate behaviour.

 

The older Scouting Section in the UK, Scout Network have a beer themed camp, which plays on the wording Cub Scouts 9 and even nicks the logo), the Pub Scout festival, details for the SAturday night Activities are below

 

Saturday night will be the biggest non fancy dress party you will have ever been to. Entertainment for this evening will be live music from Periscope, a top covers band playing anything from Busted, Green Day, Oasis, Darkness to the Beatles, the Monkeys, Bryan Adams and Gunns and Roses.

 

Again the bar will be open until 11 oclock, and the music continuing till midnight. Again you can gather around the camp fire for a chill out atmosphere till the early hours of the morning.

 

http://www.pubscoutfestival.co.uk/