packsaddle Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Sounds great! Thanks, I really enjoyed the image. Weiner dog and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 No Ed, but you can't understand. I understand fine, Merlyn. It isn't discrimination to tell public schools that they can't discriminate, and public schools can't teach that believing in gods is preferable to not believing in gods. It IS discrimination to not allow a public school to charter a Scout unit and allow a Jewish or 7th Day Adventist or Catholic or KKK or any other group to use the their facilities! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 C'mon, Ed, you must realize there's a difference between CHARTERING a unit and allowing it to meet in the school. If the school allows the Scouts, Jewish group, KKK, etc., all to use the school on the same basis, there isn't any discrimination. Similarly, if it doesn't charter any of them, there's no discrimination. Merlyn, do you have proof that "thousands" of Scouting units are chartered by the schools themselves? If you're including units chartered by PTAs, I think your argument is significantly weakened. The fact that you continually mention only a few school districts suggests to me that you may not have the actual facts to back up your assertions. Furthermore, are there scouting units chartered by public schools in the school district where you live--where you pay taxes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Hunt writes: Merlyn, do you have proof that "thousands" of Scouting units are chartered by the schools themselves? The BSA has become much more closed-mouthed about its membership breakdown since the Dale decision; in 2000, while the BSA was defending its right to discriminate, public schools chartered discriminatory units with over 360,000 members according to their own published figures. See e.g. http://www.umcscouting.org/BSA/BSA/bsa_top_30_chartered_organizatio.htm I just tried calling BSA National; everyone in the registration department is at some kind of meeting today, so I'll see if I can get more current numbers on Monday. If you're including units chartered by PTAs, I think your argument is significantly weakened. Those are listed separately; in the 2000 membership figures, PTAs were listed as chartering units with about 85,000 members. The fact that you continually mention only a few school districts suggests to me that you may not have the actual facts to back up your assertions. I only have details on a few actual examples; it's also a rapidly moving target, since a lot of units chartered to public schools disappear after a few years, and new one keep popping up (because the BSA doesn't refuse to charter discriminatory BSA units to government agencies). Furthermore, are there scouting units chartered by public schools in the school district where you live--where you pay taxes? Metro Deaf School in St. Paul is a public school that gets funding from the state of Minnesota and the school districts of its students (http://www.metrodeafschool.org/page15.html , "The key sources of funding for the school are the State and the resident school districts from which its students come"), and I called registration at the Indianhead council and asked them who chartered Pack 20 at Metro Deaf School, and they told me the school itself chartered it. Do you think atheist or gay students in this school can join the school's Cub Scout Pack? Want to call the Indianhead council and try to get a straight "yes" or "no" out of them with that question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 WOW! One whole school! And one that has limited enrollment due to the nature of the school! How much is this costing you, Merlyn? Tell ya what, I'll send you a Troop check for your portion! "Shouting just to be heard is pointless." Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Merlyn, is the Metro Deaf School in the district where you live and pay taxes? You don't say that it is, and I don't think we can assume it is. Do any students from your district attend the school? And if the School does charter a scouting unit, does it budget any money to support the unit? How much? Second, where is your evidence that BSA continues to grant new charters to public schools in any significant numbers (or any numbers at all). I would think the BSA would be encouraging those units to be sponsored by PTAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Hunt writes: Merlyn, is the Metro Deaf School in the district where you live and pay taxes? Did you read the link I posted? It's a state charter school, it doesn't have its own school district, it gets money from the state of Minnesota (and yes, I'm a Minnesota taxpayer) and from the school districts its students come from. You don't say that it is, and I don't think we can assume it is. I can. Their web page states (and I quoted that part) that the state funds their school. Do any students from your district attend the school? I don't know; my zip code is 55105 and the school is 55107, so it's possible; however, I pay MN state taxes, and the school is supported by state tax money, so that already answers your question about my taxes going to this school. And if the School does charter a scouting unit, does it budget any money to support the unit? How much? Irrelevant to the legal issues. A public school in Minnesota can't exclude students from their programs based on religion, according to MN statute 363A.13. Whether the school budgets any money for it or not doesn't exempt it from that. Second, where is your evidence that BSA continues to grant new charters to public schools in any significant numbers (or any numbers at all). I would think the BSA would be encouraging those units to be sponsored by PTAs. I've already shown you the Cambridge-Isanti Venture Crew, granted a charter after the Dale decision. There's another MN school in Monticello with a Venture Crew, patterned after the CIHS program (when it still existed). I find new BSA charters to schools and government agencies mentioned quite often, so they're still obviously doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purcelce Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Hi Merlyn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Nothing is relevant unless Merlyn says it is! "Shouting just to be heard is pointless." Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 So it appears that either the schools in Merlyn's own district either don't sponsor any Scouting units, or he doesn't know. He also doesn't know if any students from his district attend the Deaf School, or whether the Deaf School spends any money on sponsoring the unit (although I agree this probably wouldn't affect the legality of the arrangement). So it appears that this is the only school about which Merlyn might have legal standing to complain, and he apparently hasn't done it. Maybe he doesn't relish the idea of suing to take Scouting away from a bunch of deaf students, which I can certainly understand. And just to belabor the point, while the amount of money the school spends may not be legally relevant, it's practically relevant, since the evil Merlyn complains of can easily be rectified in virtually every conceivable situation by forming a private group to sponsor the unit, and then having it meet in the public location on the same basis as other groups. Since virtually no tax money goes to support these units (often the money flow is in the opposite direction, as units do valuable projects for the school), Merlyn's complaint isn't really about his tax money at all, but about a principle. Although I generally agree with the principle (that a government entity shouldn't sponsor a religious organization), I'm not convinced the problem is all that widespread, and I strongly suspect the trend is away from public sponsorship. When you add in the fact that Scouting does a huge amount of good for many people, including needy people, I just think Merlyn's extreme outlook is misplaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Hunt, I've done some recent work on this, and here's a list of 5,848 Cub Scout Packs chartered to government agencies: http://www.visi.com/~westley/bsa Feel free to send me any corrections; yes, it IS a big problem, and there are important principles at stake. And it IS a widespread problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Merlyn, Where did you compile you statistics from? How current are they? Did you check you sources? You state on your site that the government can't sponsor a group that discriminates. What is you basis for this? Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 My source is an official BSA website; their information checks out (I've done a few spot checks), and it all seems to be current. The total number of Packs I found was 48,430, which seems to be about 90% of all Packs (figures from 2003 report a total of 53,380 Packs that year); it's possible I've missed a few and/or the BSA database doesn't have all the Packs in it yet. And Ed, you've already demonstrated that you don't understand the first amendment, so I'm not going to bother to try and explain it to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Well, in my area you list 3 schools--but 2 of them are private schools. So my spot check of your accuracy suggests the true number is much smaller. How did you make sure the units weren't actually sponsored by PTAs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 You've also listed Volunteer Fire Departments--I found several on just one page. These aren't government entities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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