Here we go again...

[Eamonn]

Here we go again - Well maybe?

I remember some time ago Merlyn, peed-ed me off and I asked him to go away. Sad to say yet again I didn't have right on my side.

I do at times think Merlyn goes too far.

I am trying to work out how the BSA issuing charters to government agencies is the fault of the BSA?

To my very simple way of thinking: We (The BSA) have a program which we allow other groups to use if they acknowledge that they have the same values that we do.

The values of the BSA are well known. We offer it and it is their choice if they want to take it or leave it.

I have a good friend who owns our local supermarket. He knows that my Son is allergic to eggs. Eggs make him very sick. Does my friend do wrong by still selling eggs?

I do try to see where Merlyn is coming from. I don't agree with some of his views. But I do want to thank him for trying to explain them. I also admire him for seeing that the Boy Scouts were being discriminated against in this case and for posting it.

Thank you.

Eamonn.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eamonn writes:

I am trying to work out how the BSA issuing charters to government agencies is the fault of the BSA?

To my very simple way of thinking: We (The BSA) have a program which we allow other groups to use if they acknowledge that they have the same values that we do.

 

And the BSA (and you, I would hope) know that other groups like government agencies can't discriminate against people based on their religious views.

 

The values of the BSA are well known. We offer it and it is their choice if they want to take it or leave it.

 

Even if you know you are offering it to a group that cannot, legally, exclude people based on their religious views?

 

About "the values of the BSA are well known", I have to disagree. I've seen too many court records and talked to too many people who actually believe that the Boy Scouts will allow their special Pack or Crew to have atheist and/or gay members.

 

I've talked to the principal of Cambridge-Isanti High School, Craig Paulson, who is not only the principal, but used to be the Chair of the Three Rivers District in the Viking Council; HE thought they had some "special arrangement" with the BSA so atheists could join his school's Venture Crew. Of course, there WAS no such special arrangement.

 

I called the BSA many times to get a straight answer to my question of whether atheists could join this Venture Crew. I called the Viking council and got no clear answers; I called BSA national and kept getting referred to different people. Finally, David Park in the BSA legal department gave me the only answer I ever got to my question. Of course, it was no, atheists CAN'T join a Venture Crew, even one chartered by a public school, even one where it would be a crime to exclude them, even one where the principal didn't want to discriminate, the council didn't want to discriminate, and the charter partner (school dist. 911) didn't want to discriminate, it didn't matter.

 

Now, if an atheist or gay student at a public high school was thrown out of that school's Venture Crew for being an atheist or gay, that's a violation of Minnesota statute 363A.13 The school is breaking the law at that point, and any student would have grounds for a civil rights lawsuit against the school and the BSA (the BSA would be in violation of 363A.14, where it is a crime to coerce or attempt to coerce a public educational institution to discriminate on these grounds; the BSA is attempting to have the school practice discrimination by deceptively issuing a Venturing charter to a public school without informing the school that atheists and gays can't join).

 

The principal knew at the outset that his school can't practice discrimination, and, being chair of a BSA council, I would expect HIM to at least know the rules, but he was given the impression by his OWN BSA COUNCIL that there was some "special" arrangement in place that would allow atheists and gays to join. But neither he nor the superintendent was able to come up with anything, and they had no choice but to drop the Venture Crew.

 

Check it all out yourself (watch the wrap):

 

Principal Craig Paulson:

http://www.cambridge.k12.mn.us/~administration/paulson.html

 

An archive.org snapshot from May 9, 2003 of the old 3 Rivers District page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030509194734/http://www.vikingbsa.org/Districts/ThreeRivers/Leadership.html

The archive doesn't have a copy of his picture, but notice his work phone number and email are Principal Craig Paulson.

 

Here's a news article about the Venture Crew:

http://www.isanticountynews.com/2003/february/4venturing.html

 

Here's a story on the school board, which mentions OKing the above charter (very bottom):

http://www.isanticountynews.com/2001/december/26911audit.html

Notice this was a few months after the Dale decision.

 

MN statutes:

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/363A/13.html

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/363A/14.html

Notice that a school-run Venture Crew chartered by public school district 911 is certainly one of the " services rendered thereby" of an "educational institution", and that it is explicitly illegal to discriminate on the basis of "creed, religion...sexual orientation" in any of those services, and that attempting to coerce someone into doing so is a crime under 363A.14

 

Either the BSA or the principal (also a former BSA official) is at fault here, and I don't see much difference which one it is. Someone on the BSA side had to deceive school district 911 into believing that having a school Venture Crew wouldn't run afoul of nondiscrimination laws that MN public schools must follow.

 

So, yes, maybe I AM a little quick to call people "liars" when they misstate my position in support of such a loathsome, dishonest organization.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

How open-minded of you, Trail Pounder. No comment on how the BSA deliberately tried to get a public school to discriminate against atheist and gay students in a public high school, but I suppose they just don't matter in your world.

 

I would like nothing better than to leave the BSA alone, but first the BSA has to:

1) stop leeching off my taxes by continuing to issue charters to government agencies

2) stop misrepresenting the BSA as "for all boys" when it clearly excludes atheists

3) stop teaching "ethics" to atheist students via their Learning for Life program

4) stop leeching off my taxes with $1/year no-bid leases

5) stop leeching off my taxes by fraudulently applying for HUD grants for their Scoutreach program

 

...and that only covers the more egregious things, some of which are actual crimes.

 

I notice you didn't dispute any of my examples, you only want to shut me up -- but that doesn't make the issues disappear. "Be Unprepared" could be your motto. What do you think should have been done in the Cambridge-Isanti situation? Just hope a lawsuit never happens? Isn't someone obviously deceiving the public when a public school ends up running a youth organization that it thinks is not discriminatory, when it really is?

[Twocubdad]

As we consider this an electronic campfire I suppose we could have an electronic book burning.

 

You've got the ability to squelch both Merlyn and/or any given thread. Why don't you exercise that ability and leave the rest of us to make the same decision?

[Twocubdad]

Mama always said everyone has something to contribute, even if it is being a bad example.

 

Merlyn can be his own worst enemy. Referring to the BSA as a "loathsome, dishonest organization" isn't going to win many hearts and minds around here. Neither does he know when to quit. This thread being an execellent example of that.

 

However, he is always consistent and his arguments logical and well documented. You can disagree with his opinions and despise some of his comments, but he at least makes you think.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

And he agreed the BSA was being unlawfully discriminated against in the situation that is the original subject of this thread

 

[Eamonn]

We seem to be in wide screen.

I really think that us calling each other names is not going to get us to any place that we want to go.

I have to admit to finding some of the adjectives that Merlyn has chosen to use as offensive.But I have heard and read a lot worse.

I don't like the idea that any kid is signed up into the BSA without knowing that he has been signed up. Before everyone bites my head off telling me that it can't happen. I do know of cases where it has happened. I hope now that the 2% growth has been done away with that we will see it happening a lot less.

The high school my son attends has a Fly and Tie club. Our Council Cub Scout camp is close to spot that is good for fly fishing and the Tie and Fly club does rent the buildings for weekends to fish. Some of the club members are Boy Scouts, they found out it would be cheaper to become a Venture Crew. As Scout units pay a lower rent.

The teacher who looks after the club is willing to be the Advisor, a local Fishing Club is prepared to be the chartering organization. As yet we as a District have not started this as a new unit. If and when they start, they will meet when they always met and will use the school for most of their indoor meetings. I have no idea if the teacher is paid or not paid for School "Club Time?" As far as I know kids that want to join the Tie and Fly club and do not want to join the club will still be welcome. The club members that do join the crew will if they want be able to enjoy all the privileges that are open to all Venturers.

I have no idea what a Tie and Fly club does when they are not fishing, I guess they tie new flies? I have no idea how the Crew if it ever comes into being will run their meetings. This will be in the hands of the Crew members, under the watchful eye of the adults.

This idea came from the kids and seems to me to be a win win situation.

I am interested to see how Merlyn sees this?

Eamonn

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Your description is a bit hard to follow; if a new Venture Crew is formed chartered by a local fishing club, what is the teacher an "advisor" of? That sounds like a school position and not a Crew position. A Venture Crew chartered by an outside group should be treated the same as any other outside group; do all outside groups get a schoolteacher as an advisor? Can any outside group meet at that school?

 

And, of course, do the kids who want to form a Venture Crew realize that gay and atheist kids will not be allowed to join, even if all the members want to let them in?

[Twocubdad]

Not to put words in your mouth, Merlyn, but I would think you would be okay with this arrangement. The charter is held by a private organization. Youth can still participate in the club and choose not to join the crew. The teacher is still advising all the youth regardless of their membership. I can forsee one potential problem if the Venture side of the organization chose to participate in activities that the club-only members would be procluded from. I'm sure it would depend on how much of a firewall is maintained between the school side and the Venture side.

 

Essentially this is just a shell game that allows the club to use BSA facilities at a reduced rate and pumps the local BSA's membership numbers. A better question, albeit probably one for another thread, is why the council would go along with this? If the fishing club is operating as business as usual with no intention of offering a true Venture program or promoting the mission of the BSA, why do we want them? At another level, when the crew shows up at the scout camp with a bunch of club members who chose (or weren't allowed) to join the crew, where is the liability for those folks?

[evmori]

Fact is Merlyn will never like the BSA and he is exercising his right to say so. The BSA is also exercising it's right to not allow people who they don't think should be member membership. Call it discrimination. Call it what you want. The supreme court ruled for the BSA. Merlyn doesn't like that decision. Yet he wraps his arms around the decision to remove prayer from schools! Wonder what would make him happy? He will say when his tax dollars don't support any organization that discriminates against anyone! The chance of that happening is slim. Momma taught me to pick my fights cause you can't fight everyone!

 

Billy Joel wrote a song that fits Merlyn. I'm sure OGE know's which one I speak of. Got a line in it that states -

"I had my pointless point of view. But life went on no matter who was wrong or tight".

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

...from the road...

I'm still trying to think of a science club I have known that required a belief in something, anything. The only requirement I have ever known was an interest in science, or for that matter interest for inquiry into ideas of any kind. But that, of course, pretty much takes care of itself (uninterested persons are inherently unlikely to apply).

I suppose that if a person simply could not accept science without a belief (religious?) in a physical reality, Adrianvs's argument might have a little substance, although it seems a non sequitur. However, the scientists I have known who have expressed their thoughts on the subject have accepted physical reality more as a working assumption, sometimes expressed as fact but more likely an admission that no test has ever been devised to disprove it. Perhaps call it a null hypothesis still waiting for a testable alternative?

[DeMann]

Land 'o Goshen!!!

 

(Can I say THAT?!)

 

Merlyn,

 

DUDE!!

 

Man! check this out: every application has the declaration of religious principal on it. Don't like it? Don't fill it out!

 

check this out, too: "For similar reasons, I regard the national office of the Boy Scouts of America to be a thoroughly dishonest organization"

 

"and that only covers the more egregious things, some of which are actual crimes. "

 

Hey, guy.... If you don't like it here, leave. Lord forbid(I did it again!) you be a part of an organization that is so corrupt. We won't make you come back! and... if it is your tax money that has you so worked up about... well... tell us what your address is and we will send you a check. Really. We will. won't we guys?

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

DeMann, check this out: every public school has to treat all its students equally on the basis of their religious views.

 

So when the BSA deceives public schools into chartering their private discriminatory clubs, they're being dishonest.

 

You have no problem being part of a dishonest organization?

[evmori]

DeMann, check this out: every public school has to treat all its students equally on the basis of their religious views.

Wrong. All students must be treated equally REGARDLESS of their religious views!

 

So when the BSA deceives public schools into chartering their private discriminatory clubs, they're being dishonest.

There is no deception so there is no dishonesty

 

You have no problem being part of a dishonest organization?

 

The BSA is not a dishonest organization so I have no problem being a member!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

 

 

[johndaigler]

Demann,

 

I understand some of your frustration with Merlynn. I don't agree with all of it, but I understand. Don't, however, tell him to go away. This here campfire has room for lot's of folks to pull up a log. Agree or disagree, that's all good. But, everybody ought to get a say. If the ideals and efforts of BSA can't stand up to Merlynn, or any other criticism that Scouters or non-Scouters think up, then there's a problem that needs to be looked at.

 

Tellin someone they don't belong here is "Hazing2