Social & Economic Forces & Their Effect on our Program

[cjmiam]

While I agreed with the other thread as it was written by B.W., I had an expanding opinion that I wanted to share, but did not want to steer the thread astray. I do wholeheartedly agree that achieving the Mission of the BSA comes down to quality adult volunteers. However, I also believe that a quality program encompasses many other factors, many of which DO involve having the means to fulfill them.

 

Further I believe that kids do not care about the quality of the leaders when they are deciding to join our program. Parents might care, but more times than not there has to be a desire from the boy to join before we get a new Scout in our program. And I believe only part of that desire is fulfilled by the leaders personal traits or qualities.

 

While I believe that delivering our Mission should not be based on Scouting as a commodity, I do believe that to judge the effectiveness of the Scouting program we have to look at the number of children we serve and the way in which we serve them. Even the greatest and most noble Mission is meaningless without members to follow or achieve it.

 

So I will keep my premise simple as well.

 

The ability of a Scout unit to recruit and retain Scouts is based on one thing and one thing only. The quality of its program.

 

[Bob White]

And what element do you believe effects a quality program more than the ability of the unit leaders?

[Laurie]

Without quality leaders, I'm not sure we can have a quality program. My experience is limited, but I know boys who love Scouting but don't feel comfortable/safe with the adult leaders. Therefore, they don't go to the program. My belief is that the program suffers when the leaders putting it into place are not quality leaders. And maybe I should define what I mean by quality: willing to follow the program, to get trained, to put the boys' needs first. There will be, IMO, varying degrees of quality.

[Hunt]

"The ability of a Scout unit to recruit and retain Scouts is based on one thing and one thing only. The quality of its program."

 

I don't fully agree with this. I think an equally important factor in the ability of a unit to recruit is the friendliness and inclusiveness of the boys in the unit. This is certainly what made the difference for my son when he was choosing troops. I tend to agree with you in terms of retention, though.

[Twocubdad]

I'll answer your question, Bob: Nothing. Nothing affects the quality of a program more than the ability of the leaders.

 

But that is very different from your statement in the first thread where you wrote, "The ability of a scout unit to achieve its mission is based on one thing, and one thing only. The quality of it's adult leaders."

 

And that difference is the point Hunt, JD and myself have been trying to make. Quality of leadership may be the most important factor, but it is not the only factor.Scouting doesn't occur in a vacuum.

 

An argument could be made that the content of this entire forum over the two years I've been a member has been about the factors that impact the quaility of the program: attendance, parental support, funding, CO support, quality of summer camps, cost of uniforms, and yes, the quality of leadership.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[cajuncody]

I don't really believe there is one thing and one thing only that makes a program successfull. Or if you like political speak "There is no smoking gun". IMO it is a combination of many factors, while money helps it is not required. While good leaders help, a bad leader can be considered fun by the boys. Uniforms look nice but an ununiformed group can have just as good a program. I think that it is many factors added to the personal combination of members within the region that determines a successfull program.

Cajun(This message has been edited by cajuncody)

[Bob White]

Thank you Twocubdad you have brought things one step closer.

 

As we agree that nothing has greater effect I now pose this question.

 

Please, name a combination of, let's say, THREE elements that you feel could replace quality leadership and still deliver a quality program.

 

If you cannot come up with three elements that can replace quality leadership try 8. Just keep in mind that they would have to be actions that did not require quality leadership to perform since the premise is that quality leadership is not there.

 

cjmiam

Beware the "fun" trap. Yes scouting is fun, but not everything that is fun to a boy is scouting. I have seen troops that do nothing but play dodge ball for an hour every week. The boys have a blast. but IT'S NOT SCOUTING!

 

If you aren't using the methods of the program you are not scouting...you are just doing stuff in a scout uniform.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eamonn]

A little while back in another thread we spend a little time looking at what we understood to be the program.

Many if not most of the people who post in these forums were in agreement that program is what happens at your weekly meetings and what you do with the youth while they are in your care.

While I agree wholeheartedly that a good sense of humor might be a characteristic in a leader, I sure as heck would not select a person to be a leader because he her she was considered to be fun by the boys. A bad leader is a bad leader. We can send him or her to training and we will have a trained bad leader.

The District I serve covers part of Fayette County. A county that every agency there is has in some fancy jargon or another deemed a poverty county. Please look it up and see how low he median income is, how high the unemployment is. How few of the residents graduated from High school let alone college. Yes the Dunbar Mountains are part of the district that I serve.

At a very heated FOS meeting, where goals were being set and the SE wanted the goal for that area raised our DE lost it and said " These people don't have teeth let alone money for FOS."

In the thread on uniform someone said that the where there is a will there is a way people were becoming a pet peeve. Well my new pet peeve is leaders who want to use the fact that hey do their Scouting in a poor or depressed area as some form as a crutch.

The packs and Troops in Fayette County, provide a Scouting program for the Kids in the program. Just like the Packs and Troops in Westmoreland County which makes up the other half the District. We have Troops and packs that do an outstanding job, Packs and Troops that do an OK job and packs and troops that do a rotten job. Packs and Troops in both counties have times when they are at an all time high and times when there is concern about their very survival. The cause of these highs and lows can be directly linked to the Leadership. The area doesn't change that much, the chartering organization doesn't change. The Leader changes.

In one Troop we had an outstanding leader, he was with the troop for many years, his son went through the program and became an Eagle Scout and soon after things at home went bad. He divorced and left the program. The troop went down and down till it was in danger of closing. The leader remarried and along with the new wife came a stepson, soon both he and the stepson were back. The troop now is about the best in the council. Bill the Leader is an old time Scoutmaster, he knows how to play this game. With Bill the Patrol Method is not just a method of Scouting it is Scouting. I watch his interaction with Scouts and I stand in awe. I know of only one other Leader who is that good a friend of mine in the UK. I have as a lifetime goal to be as good as these two guys.

Everything we do in this organization leads back to the mission and vision statement. Sure the games and fun things are what keep our Scouts coming back. Sure the Leaders don't work alone a good Leader will surround him or herself with people who are good at what they do. Just as a Den Leader will bring in experts from different fields to talk to the Cub Scouts, and will leave the finances and stuff in the hands of the Pack Committee.

I can't help feeling that the time to stop whining and start Scouting was yesterday.

Eamonn

[BadenP]

I agree with the posters here, scouting is a multidimensional and flexible program adaptable for any style of group. Leadership is important, but I have seen units surpass the leadership and do things the leader may not have thought possible. Then the unit evolves and takes on a life of its own. As scout leaders we can not be so smug and assume we have all the answers,or that everything must be done only our way, otherwise your program stagnates. The units I have led over the years are still alive and well, growing bigger and stronger and I am proud to have been there at the beginning and watch them evolve through time. Reminding me that this program is so much more than one leader or set of leaders.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Hunt]

This statement: "If you aren't using the methods of the program you are not scouting...you are just doing stuff in a scout uniform" is kind of like the horse-suit comment. I think people may read you to say, "If you aren't using ALL of the methods of the program EXACTLY AS LAID DOWN BY BSA you are not scouting...you are just doing stuff in a scout uniform." I hope that's not what you mean--I choose to interpret your statement to mean that you think the best possible program can be delivered by adhering as closely as possible to BSA's methods, and that at some point deviation from those methods is no longer "scouting." I think most people would agree with that, and could discuss where that point is.

As for leadership, I agree that it must have a basic level of "quality" in order for the program to be successful. Does that mean that every leader must be fully trained, fully uniformed, and totally committed to the BSA way from day 1? I don't think so, although that's a goal. But there do have to be leaders who are willing to do their best and to learn.

[cjmiam]

Laurie, quality leaders are a part of what I consider a quality program.

 

Hunt, teaching friendliness to the Scouts and having them practice it is what Id consider a part of a quality program.

 

Bob, Im not sure what you are talking about regarding a fun trap. I dont recall mentioning it, but since you did, Ill agree, fun is indeed a part of a quality program.

 

And yes, Bob, I too agree that quality leaders are a part of a quality program as I did with Laurie.

 

And what element do you believe effects a quality program more than the ability of the unit leaders?

 

I dont think I recall stating that any certain thing was of the greatest importance. However, since you phrased it that way, Id have to say that several factors are at least of equal importance or greater. First, having an organization willing to sponsor the unit has a paramount effect on the quality of the program. Without a charter we dont have a unit or a program. Another element that Id say is paramount is having a safe meeting environment. If the unit has no place to meet that is safe the program would not be able to run. Of course as you stated, the unit leader. And finally the most obvious that affects the quality of a program is whether it has any Scouts. Its kinda difficult to run a quality program with no boys. I think the minimum to start a unit is five.

 

Oh and one more thing I almost forgot, since our program is run by the PLC and SPL, Id have to say the quality of the SPL and PLC might be even more important than the quality of the unit leader when it comes to the quality of our unit's program.

 

[EagleInKY]

I'm in agreement with the statement that the single most important factor is the quality of the leaders. But I do believe there are other factors that impact the quality of the program, just not as profoundly. A quality leader can overcome many of these other distractions, a poor one cannot.

 

I also believe that there are two types of good leaders - Those who have been trained and understand the program and know how to execute it. The second is the accidental leader. I've run across a few in my years. I don't think they realize they are a good leader, or even why they are. They just happen to be.

 

Finally, on the "fun" note. My first Boy Scout experience was with a "fun" troop. They were a good size troop and had lots of fun. But, when rocky times hit, they had no foundation to rely on. The troop crumbled and fell apart. Building a troop on the foundation of a solid scouting program is paramount. The fun should come naturally.

[Bob White]

"Without a charter we dont have a unit or a program. Another element that Id say is paramount is having a safe meeting environment. If the unit has no place to meet that is safe the program would not be able to run. Of course as you stated, the unit leader. And finally the most obvious that affects the quality of a program is whether it has any Scouts. Its kinda difficult to run a quality program with no boys. I think the minimum to start a unit is five"

 

 

Okay then cjmiam lets test your conditions and see if we have a quality program.

 

I have five scouts, and two untrained adults sitting in the middle of new gymnasium at the new high school.

 

They have a charter, there are safe, there are 5 scouts present. To add an element you mentioned before we will give them a dodge ball we will say that they are having "fun".

 

Are they Scouting? What if we dress everyone up in scout uniforms? Are they scouting yet? Is this a "quality" program in your evaluation? If not, add something to it that does not require quality leadership and tell me when it is a quality scouting program. Add as much as you want.

 

By the way, scouting started and operated for years without charters, or regular meeting places, and sometimes with just one or two scouts. How was that possible?

 

"Oh and one more thing I almost forgot, since our program is run by the PLC and SPL, Id have to say the quality of the SPL and PLC might be even more important than the quality of the unit leader when it comes to the quality of our unit's program."

 

But we are building this quality program without the need for quality leaders. So who exactly trained these scouts to know what the leadership skills of scouting are and what the responsibilities are. Who knew how to lead a boy led unit? Who are their mentors and coaches in this scouting unit?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Twocubdad]

Sorry, Bob, not going to bite. Is there anyone who doesn't understand that whether I list three, eight or 800 elements that you wont find someway that a "good" leader will overcome them? Ah, the beauty of hypothetical problems!

 

But besides, your question is based on a false premise. No one I know -- certainly not me -- has suggested that some combination of elements will replace leaders. All we've said is that there are elements outside of Scouting that may affect a quality program.

[Bob White]

GREAT! Now let me ask this if you cannot name any program elements in any combination that can substitute for quality leadership....can you name any program problems that quality leadership cannot overcome?