Social and Economic Forces and Their Effect on Scouting

[packsaddle]

Heh, heh, heh...welcome to the forums, twocubdad .

Johndaigler, nice summary.

Cajuncody, I agree. It brings to mind arguments regarding another social issue. Those arguments were collectively termed, "separate but equal" as I remember.

 

Edited part: SR540beaver, your point about Cajuncody's message is taken. However, if resources limit boys' ability to be there or if resource limits affect attitudes in the community, then program simply may not reach as many boys as it could or should. In that respect, resource limitation may be a negative influence.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[SR540Beaver]

cajuncody,

 

I think you made Bob's argument for him. Teaching boys timeless values cost you pennies while the boys who spent big bucks to get a trophy to put on a shelf got little more than about 89 cents worth of wood and plastic. Which unit get the most out of the program? Your boys learned that hard work is sometimes it's own reward. That they can do something on their own. How to do their best. How they can do it better next time. Etc. You applied the aims and methods for little more than the cost of a PWD kit and got a great return. The other unit applied money and got little in return.

[cjmiam]

Building character and instilling values in young people doesnt cost a cent. No amount of money will teach a kid how to make ethical choices over his lifetime or achieve his full potential. The ability of a unit to achieve its mission does rely on the quality of the adult volunteers. However, I do believe that part of the quality of one the building blocks of Scouting does rely on the ability of the unit to afford its costs. Specifically outdoor adventures. The cost of summer camp and high adventure activities can be a lot of money for some families. Is a unit achieving its mission if less than 50% of their membership attends summer camp because they cant afford it? Well, its difficult to instill anything in a Scout if they arent there. A lot can be learned on a high adventure trip, but what if only 1/3 of the troop can afford that? In my opinion, it doesnt lessen our ability to deliver our mission, but only creates an opportunity for us to work harder. Maybe it will be that sub-zero campout where we teach the Scouts strong personal values and character or the desire to learn. Or maybe its the 10-mile hike that doesnt cost a dime that teaches the Scout about caring and nurturing relationships with adults and peers.

 

We have to look at Scouting not as a commodity, but instead as an state of being and way of life. Its our mission to provide our world with young men of character that will be our future leaders. If we have the resources to take them to neat places while we do it, great! It is ironic however that most of the posters and marketing materials I see for Scouting involve rock climbing, backpacking in some exotic land, sailing a big boat, etc. If thats how we entice kids to join are we not false advertising if we dont deliver? Ive asked that question many times whenever I get some new Join Scouting poster. I think incorporating these activities into the units program will certainly make it more rounded and give the boys some excellent experiences. But is is still my opinion as well that achieving our mission is indeed based on quality leaders.

[Bob White]

Adventure is relative, and High Adventure is not a method of scouting, Outdoor Activity is, and outdoor activity is FREE.

[cjmiam]

Well, I don't have the publication number, but if you look in "The Building Blocks of Scouting" under Outdoor Program, you will find summer camp and high adventure both listed with large paragraphs about their benefits. I think it's clear that the BSA finds these important aspects of our program, as do I. Outdoor adventure could simply be camping in my back yard I suppose, but it certainly would be difficult to teach or learn a whole lot doing that all my life.

[Bob White]

High adventure is a program feature in troop Scouting, Outdoor Activity is one of 8 Program Methods in troop Scouting. There is a huge and important difference.

 

 

High Adventure is a Program Method of Venturing.

 

You can deliver a quality troop or pack program without High Adventure.

 

[cjmiam]

Well, first I didnt see an exclusion of Venturing in your original post. I saw simply Scout units. Can we offer a quality Venturing program without High Adventure? Bob, I believe Ive agreed with you in your original premise that quality volunteers are the key to achieving the Mission of Scouting. If you read my post, youll note that I did explain that even if our Scouts or we dont have the resources to go to summer camp or on some high adventure activity we can still achieve our Mission of instilling values in young people and prepare them to make ethical choices over their lifetime.

[Bob White]

I was correcting my previous post where I said that high adventure wasn't a method of scouting, I should have said TROOP scouting as that was the topic of our conversation.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NJCubScouter]

High adventure is not listed as a "method" of Boy Scouting, but national certainly does promote it is a reason to join Boy Scouting.

 

Click on http://www.scouting.org/nav/boyscout/ymain.html

 

This is from the official BSA National web site. Which program are they talking about? It's not Venturing. And what about that guy on the right, what is he doing? (I'll spare you the mystery, he is rappelling (sp?) down a rock face. As for Scouting's aims, physical fitness is clearly being promoted, and also he is probably thanking God for the rope, but let's face it, he is having fun and the image is meant to convey having fun in a high-adventure activity. Like the "Follow the Rugged Road" slogan from when I joined Scouting, but with the nifty red helmet added.)

 

I don't mean to suggest that this is all Scouting is about. It's not. The outdoor method is one method. But the fact is that National promotes the Boy Scout program to BOYS, at least in part, as a path to high adventure activities.

 

As for the larger point of "money," I don't think Bob's point is wrong, but I do think he is "overselling" it. It is certainly true that a low socieoeconomic situation should not be a barrier to a boy getting the "Scouting experience." But it does have some impact. As I believe Bob said, money makes it "easier." Well, sometimes "ease" is the difference between something happening or not, or happening the right way or not. I could understand an adult who is just scraping by financially not feeling that he or she has the time to get involved in Scouting, in comparison to someone who is relatively comfortable. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of people in a depressed economic area and it should be no surprise that keeping a Scouting program going will present greater challenges.

[Bob White]

There are dozens of great reasons to join Boy Scouts and each person no doubt has their own. But there are only 8 specific methods of the Boy Scout program and they are the same nationwide. High adventure is not one of them.

 

Overselling, is selling past the point that the customer has said yes to your product. I don't hear that from the posters I have responded to.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Outdoor adventure isn't always free. There is the cost to get there (gas, oil, etc.), possible permit fees, etc. Any unit that is in an impoverished area might have financial problems that severely limit their outdoor or for that fact any activities outside regular meetings.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

It is indeed interesting to hear about how the program is delivered throughout the country. In our Council we have a Scoutreach division, it functions as its own District, last year as this year the Crew I serve was/has been asked to staff an "Advancement Camporee". The Scoutreach troops, all from economically depressed areas of the council are bused in to the Campsite. The Council provides the gear and the crew runs stations coverering advancement requirements, on Sunday there is a Socut's own and they are bused home.

[NJCubScouter]

Bob says:

 

There are dozens of great reasons to join Boy Scouts and each person no doubt has their own. But there are only 8 specific methods of the Boy Scout program and they are the same nationwide. High adventure is not one of them.

 

"High adventure" is part of the outdoor method, and I know it is not specifically mentioned in the "official" description. But do people "in Boy Scouting" generally regard "high adventure" as being an important part of the "Boy Scout program?" I think the answer is yes. And why do they think that? Because that is what the BSA itself says. How else do you explain the fact that when you go to the official BSA web site and click on the phrase "Boy Scout" you get a screen that has a little description of the Boy Scout program, illustrated by one photo, of a young man descending a cliff? The BSA had hundreds, perhaps thousands of different images to choose from to put in that spot, but the one they chose was one that anyone would define as "high adventure." Presumably, the BSA has carefully selected the words and images on its web site, both to present factually accurate information, and to create an "image" in the viewer's mind that would promote the program -- hopefully by inducing the viewer to "support" the program in some way, either by joining, recruiting someone else to join, or in some other supportive way. At least, I hope and believe that is what they intend.

 

So, the relevant questions are these: Is this particular photograph of a high-adventure activity an accurate image of what Boy Scouts do? Or at least, what Boy Scouts have an opportunity to do if they continue with the program and are physically capable of doing so (and the financial resources are availalble either from themselves or from some other source?) I think the answer is yes, at least as to the second way of asking the question, with all the qualifiers. And the second question is, if the BSA is using this particular image to promote the program, does that mean that the BSA regards "high adventure" as an important part of the program that will attract people to join it? I think the answer is yes. And what about the fact that "high adventure" is not mentioned in the official list of methods, or in the description of the outdoor method? In light of all the other information, that fact seems pretty irrelevant.

 

Overselling, is selling past the point that the customer has said yes to your product. I don't hear that from the posters I have responded to.

 

Bob, you're right. That is the technical meaning of the word, though I have seen it used how I used it, to mean that someone is presenting accurate facts but is drawing at least one conclusion from those facts that the facts do not really support. I was trying to be diplomatic. I thought it would be more polite to say that you were "overselling" your point than to say that, while you are correct that there need not be a direct correlation between money and program, I think some of your statements downplay the importance of money in Scouting, and present an inaccurate picture of reality.

[Eamonn]

I can't help feeling that I am missing something?

At first I didn't go to the link that was posted. It didn't seem that important. As I read the postings I thought maybe it was a photo of Philmont. It wasn't!! The photo is of what looks like a older fellow repelling or abseiling. As far as I can see there is no title or credit given for where the picture is taken, who took it, or who the guy on the rope is.While this sort of activity is or could be listed as High Adventure. Do we know that this picture wasn't taken by the troop that meets 200 yards away from this rock?

I clicked away on the word Boy Scout I found all the good stuff from a fact sheet "What is Scouting" I clicked on Activities and there was a lot of choices. Family Fun had a few nice games that families could play. Of course there is a need for electricity, an inter-net connection and a computer. There was a nice page about project COPE. I know many Councils have invested a lot of money building COPE courses. Scouts who attend Summer camp in our council who meet the requirements can sign up to participate in the COPE program. The Council does offer financial aid for to those who need it. It is possible that some Scouts could attend Summer camp for very little or at no cost. There was a page about Climb On Safety. This covered Climbing Walls and Repelling towers. We offer these at summer camp for scouts who meet the age requirements.

There was a page on Leave No Trace.

There was a page on Adventures for older boy's. This covered a lot of the reading material that is available. It did make mention of the National High Adventure bases.

There was a page on Nationally Approved Historic Trails, I looked up what was in our area. If you lived close enough you could use these at little or no cost.

There was a page that linked to the Council High Adventure Bases. I looked at a few and found the cost to be in the area of $250 for a week. Or with two years notice about $2.50 a week.

There was a neat page about Order of the Arrow involvement in Cub Scout Camping programs.

There was a page about the National Jamboree, which is not cheap. However I have $800 in grant money that no one seems to want.

I don't see any sort of over sale.

But as I said I think that I must be missing something.

Eamonn