Social and Economic Forces and Their Effect on Scouting

[Hunt]

It seems clear to me that in some communities the obstacles to organizing and providing a quality Scouting program are much greater than in others. This is probably true of economically depressed areas, but it may also be true of other areas with other obstacles (like more competition from other activities, for example). Some of us are lucky to live in areas with lots of boys who have a good impression of scouting, parents with free time and money, and community organizations with the resources to help. When you're looking at leaders trying to deliver the program, you have to look at the big picture--so in a poor community, it might be very difficult for a troop to come up with money for activities, gear, and uniforms--difficult choices might have to be made.

[SR540Beaver]

Ed,

 

It was clarified earlier in the thread. If it is still unclear to you, I don't know why. The program is the program.....period. How the leadership of a given unit provides the program is the part that keeps it from being identical. Some follow it, some don't. But the program itself exists unchanged, regardless of whether it is used correctly or not. No two programs will LOOK totally alike because no two programs are being run by the same leadership. How much clearer can it be made for you? Money has nothing to do with how a given leader provides and teaches leadership in the program.

 

With all due respect, I thought we had finally rid ourselves of the antagonist angle when FOG got himself booted. Let's keep the threads helpful, friendly, courteous, kind and cheerful please.

[Twocubdad]

The initial question, "Can an effective scouting program be delivered to a community regardless of its economic and social make-up?" is worded so that the obvious answer supports the point about quality of leadership. Of course strong, motivated leaders can overcome the social and economic problems of their unit and community to deliver a good Scout program. But answering that question only requires that we look at the sucessful units. We all know of units where extraordinary leaders committed to the program have overcome much to deliver a good program. We all also know of units with every advantage have failed due to poor leadership.

 

If the point is that the quality of a program is highly dependant on the the quality of the leadership, first of all I agree with you. But secondly, let's change the subject of this thread.

 

Social and economic forces have a great effect on the Scouting program. That councils must provide some units in underpriviledged ares with paid leaders and significant financial and logistical support is prima facia evidence of that.

 

I'm sure all of us here consider ourselves good, sucessful Scouters. But how sucessful would we be without the parental support we enjoy? What if all our "good" parents work two or three jobs to support their families with no time left for Scouts? Would we still be sucessful if asking for a couple dollars to cover the cost of food for a weekend meant that half of our boys couldn't go? Would our activities and outings be of the same quality if we spent half our time scrounging for gear and supplies instead of concentrating on the program? Or what if we are in an immigrant community with no cultural tradition for volunteer organizatons (and a really serious distrust of ANYBODY in uniform)?

 

Can you really say that overcoming all these hurdles -- in addition to all the other things required to run a good program -- doesn't have an effect on the program?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[evmori]

SR540Beaver, If you read Bob's original post you will see

Will the programs be identical? No, but do not assume that means that the program with more money is better.

I read this as the BSA has different programs which they don't. The program is identical, the delivery can, and probably should be different.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Twocubdad,

Please, let's not change the subject of this thread. If you wish to start a new subject it is easy enough to select the new topic button and do so. That is the purpose of having separate threads and not just one big bulletin board.

 

I disagree with your point and would be happy to counter your argument. Please be courteous and start a new thread.

 

Ed,

Please stop misrepresenting what I have said. If you wish to quote me the board features allow you to do so. You can even link to the post so that everyone can see it in the context it was written.

Your posts are again becoming more about your dislike for me, and less about the topic at hand. I would hope that recent actions taken by the board administration towards other posters would have given you a clue. I would recommend you get over your personal vendetta.

 

BW

[Twocubdad]

I'm confused, Bob. Do you want to talk about social and economic forces and their effect on Scouting or that the quality of the program is dependant on the quality of leadership? I'm not sure where you stand on the former, but I believe we agree on the latter.

[EagleInKY]

Ed, With all due respect, I believe you're misrepresenting what Bob is trying to say. I've had my disagreements with Mr. White, but I tend to agree with him on this.

 

The Aims and Methods of Scouting are the same, no matter what. This can be considered the national "program", if you will. In that sense, yes, the program is the same, no matter where you go in the BSA. (Or, at least, it is supposed to be).

 

Secondly, each unit attempts to deliver the methods to the boys in order to achieve the aims. Let's consider the outdoor program for a moment. A troop in a disadvantaged area will likely not go on a High Adventure trip each year, but they may work in a field trip to a local zoo or park. They may not be able to go to the best national parks with the best campsite facilties and hiking trailes, but they do manage to go camping a few times a year at their local council's camps (which are offered for free or at a low cost to units). They may not go winter survial camping (because they don't have the proper gear) or on a snow-sking trip, but they do go out to a local park for sledding and cook smores over a charcoal grill.

 

Now, are these troop's programs the same? NO. Are they both using the outdoor method to achieve the aims of scouting? YES. Different "program" at a local level, but still following the national "program".

 

I believe, with good (and creative) leadership, the methods of scouting can be used at any income level to provide a quality scouting program.

[evmori]

What did I misrepresent, Bob?

 

EagleInKY,

You post snuck in while I was responding! The program is identical. The delivery of the program is the difference.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[johndaigler]

BW - Your logic about leadership is sound. But, you titled the thread,"Social and Economic Forces and Their Effect on Scouting". Perhaps it's the conversation about "Quality Leadership" that doesn't fit the thread.

 

No one is going to successfully argue your initial point about Leadership. But your logic is vacuum-based, and to deny the real-world impact of economics, race, community environment, neighborhood safety, police and govt. relationships, family and cultural traditions, isn't sound logic or helpful to anyone fighting the good fight.

 

Can Quality Leadership overcome all these issues?? Sure, eventually. But, in the meantime, your original post reads like an indictment of any Scouter who's struggling through any or all of these problems, because everyone knows QUALITY Leadership kicks everything else's butt. If you meant it as a pep talk or a motivator to tell others they'll win in the end -- it didn't fly. Even without those major issues, each of us face local smaller issues like misbehaving kids, misbehaving parents, misbehaving peers. Your post feels like a condemnation of any leader who hasn't figured out the answers yet.

 

(Going back to other thread discussions and not to put words in your mouth, but . . .} You won't win the "total uniform" argument with anyone. Everyone gets the value of the uniform, but to make it seem as if it should be everyone's first priority denies their own leadership and in fact condemns it. Now, you can say that's not what you said, but that's how MANY people read your posts. You write with black and white phrases and use black and white logic and speak from seemingly black and white views, but it's a very gray world and most of the rest of us don't have all the training and knowledge stuffed between those [well separated ] ears. Just, once in a while, cut us some slack, will ya?

 

BTW, your examples and ideas for cajuncody were great -- it just took too long to get there!

 

jd

[SR540Beaver]

Ed,

 

Do you throw a box of crackers out after you eat the first one off the top, or do you dig a little deeper for more. You asked for clarification and it was provided in subsequent posts. Asked and answered, let's keep moving.

[EagleInKY]

Ed,

 

The program is identical. The delivery of the program is the difference.

 

I agree. Aren't we just talking semantics? (Local program, delivery of the program, etc.) Whatever you want to call it, I believe this is what Bob was trying to say.

[evmori]

I agree. Aren't we just talking semantics? (Local program, delivery of the program, etc.) Whatever you want to call it, I believe this is what Bob was trying to say.

 

Different program is not the same as different delivery of the same program.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Not an indictment, a different perspective. You do not need any amount of monety to teach values. The methods aims and mission of scouting are not dependent on having any kind of financial support. There have over 160,000,000 members of the BSA. The resouces needed by units to have what they need to deliver the promise of scouting is available to comminities and units in need.

 

The fact that some leaders haven't found them yet does not mean they aren't there OR that they should give up looking for it. There is nothing wrong with a boy to not having a complete uniform YET. But there is a problem when leaders stop working toward the use of the uniform method as a tool to teach scouting.

 

If you are a scout leader in a depressed area you must have known the challenges you would face going into it. That doesn't preclude you from using the methods of scouting since they are not based on income. My point is that challenges exist in all communities, get past the "we can't do all the methods because of_________(fill in the blank). The methods of scouting are not bought, they are things we do as leaders in the BSA they are actions and philosophies not stuff you buy.

[cajuncody]

(Cajun steps to the bat to take a swing)

IMO the Social and Economic Forces of a community do have an effect on Scouting. I am not just refering to buying equipment or uniforms either. If you look at 2 cub packs, lets say pack A is a high income group and pack B is not. I would wager on Pack B getting more out of scouting simply because this group of boys does not get everything handed to them. My boys are the pack B group. We may not be in uniform or have camping equipment but the personal accomplishments seem to mean more to them. For Example, at our Pinewood Derby District meet we were up against a "wealther" pack. Most of the cars were professionally airbrushed with the internet "speed" shapes that you had to buy the book to get the plans for. Sure, these cars won against our boys but even our boys knew that the other kids didn't help on their cars. We made our cars in our dens and with our fathers. We didn't buy the fancy plans or send them out to be airbrushed. We sanded and painted and designed our own. Our boys came away with much more than trophys. Our program teaches "Do your Best" not have Daddy pay someone to do it for you.

Cajun

[Hunt]

I think what may be vexing some of us is this statement from the first post: "The ability of a scout unit to achieve its mission is based on one thing, and one thing only. The quality of its adult leaders." This implies (to me, anyway)that failure of a unit to overcome any obstacle is simply the fault of the leaders and an indictment of their "quality." First of all, I think that external factors can have real impacts on how feasible it is to achieve the mission. Second, many of us who find ourselves serving as adult leaders in Scouting don't have all the qualities we'd like to have--but we're doing it anyway. We can improve our qualities through training and by other means, of course--but I think it's fanciful to suggest that "quality" leaders grow on trees and that unit problems can be solved by getting quality leaders. It reminds me of the Peanuts cartoon where Charlie Brown complains to Lucy (in her Psyciatric Help stand) that he's lonely, feels unloved, etc. Her response: "Get some friends. Five cents please."