Social and Economic Forces and Their Effect on Scouting

[Bob White]

I have purposely left race out of this because I believe it has no additional impact on the topic.

 

The real question is can an effective scouting program be delivered to a community regardless of its economic and social make-up?

 

I will keep my argument simple. Based on my personal experiences organizing units in a variety of economic neighborhoods, the answer is yes. Will the programs be identical? No, but do not assume that means that the program with more money is better. The way to judge any scouting program is by its ability to achieve the aims and mission of scouting, not by it's bank account, the number of Eagle scouts churned out, or by where it goes camping.

 

The ability of a scout unit to achieve its mission is based on one thing, and one thing only. The quality of it's adult leaders.

 

The world and its history is filled with examples of people who had strong character and values, but little or no money.

 

I welcome anyone's argument that can prove the contrary.

[evmori]

I thought the Scouting program was the same regardless of where it is delivered? I thought the delivery methods were the difference not the Scouting program? I thought there is only one Scouting program in the USA?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Bob White]

Thinking is a good thing Ed, especially if it leads to understanding. I hope you can understand that while there is one program, and one set of methods in the Boy Scout level, there are a variety of leaders responsible for delivering the program. Their ability will determine how well the program is followed and implemented.

 

Different units under different leadership will be different in their ability to fulfill the mission of the BSA. But the point of this thread is that it is the ability of the leader that will make the difference NOT the social or economic make-up of the community.

 

I am sure we have all seen this in our own communities, where more than one unit exists. Often times some units flourish while others whither a slow lingering demise. They share the same economy and social level. That have access to the same scouting resources and training. The difference between them, the quality of the adult leadership.

 

It is not money that makes a good unit program. Money can only make it easier but you still have to know what your doing as a leader. It's the quality of the people that make the difference. Bad leaders with lots of money do not get better results than good leaders with little or no money.

 

It's leadership that delivers scouting at the unit level not income. I hope this helps you to understand.

[SR540Beaver]

Ed, Ed, Ed,

 

Bob made very clear what he meant. Units won't be alike in that they have a nice cushy scout hut built out behind their CO or a big bus pulling a trailer to transport the boys. The boys won't have $500 MSR tents and other expensive gear. The scouting program is not based on the material wealth on the troop. As Bob said, it is judged on the use of the aims and methods. That program is identical for all troops in the US. Why must the glass always be half empty when responding to Bob?

[BadenP]

Bob,

 

Okay in a previous thread you stated that, "the ability to have your scouts in full uniform is not dependent on economics but on the leadership plan for the troop." Now you are backtracking since Cajun and I gave our personal experiences where that was just not possible. I agree that scouting can be delivered in a poor area, just not the way you envision it. I feel very strongly, as you have read in my previous posts, that these poor boys in scout troops in depressed areas are just has good scouts as those from affluent areas, whether they have part or all of a uniform. I want you to know that in these troops we can't always be by the book, but we sure try.

 

Lastly let me tell you two big accomplishments this troop did in their neighborhood. First, they took an deserted lot used for drug deals, etc. and developed into a community garden where neighborhood people are growing their own food so can have a healthy diet and save on food costs. Second, they converted an abandoned storefront into a daycare center so moms could go and look for work and not leave their kids home alone. To me this is the best example of the spirit of scouting I have ever seen. The community provided what they could, the gift of their labor and their love for these boys. One boy in that troop made it to Eagle and he became the current scoutmaster of the troop. And you know what, they did this all without ever owning a complete uniform. These kids may not have done everything by the book, but what they did do was nothing short of a miracle. So when I hear a scouter in here state "its not in the rules", I just cringe and wonder what are they teaching their boys, a set of rules and regulations or how to be a contributing citizen to their neighborhood and country.

[dsteele]

BadenP --

 

I think what you describe is an excellent example of Scouting regardless of where it is done or by whom.

 

Great job!

 

Unc.

[Bob White]

BP

I'm not sure we are disagreeing. Have I at any point said that a boy MUST be in a complete uniform in order to be a good scout? Did I say that a unit SHOULD make uniforms mandatory, or that YOU must demand the troop you serve to be in a complete uniform?

 

You are not reading what I'm writing, only what you expect to see written.

 

You and cajun have not proven that uniforming is impossible, only that what you have done so far did not get the results hoped for...or did it. Did you set out to fully uniform every scout or was your goal to prove it couldn't be done? If it was the former then why give up. Why not look for a different solution?

 

I think what your scouts have accomplished is terriffic. Now let me ask. How could they do these things living in a low income area? If it wasn't money that made it possible then what was it? Perhaps through leadership?

 

And isn't that what I said made the difference?

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Bob,

I refer you to your post on page 2 of the Requiring a Uniform thread where you stated what I quoted in my last post here. I am glad to hear that you do not believe that wearing a complete uniform is a requirement of a good scout program because I feel those are seperate issues in poor areas.

 

They accomplished these projects using the method I call Stone Soup, after the famous story. People in the community bought items stored in their basement old paint, tools, seeds, hoses and their own skills. These boys brought this neighborhood together for the first time in many years. Poor as these people are they are also proud of their area and wanted to help make it a better place. I also got a couple of the local merchants to kick in what they could afford.

 

Unc,and Bob thanks for the kudos I will pass them on.

[Eamonn]

The Question is:

" Can a effective Scouting program be delivered to a community regardless of its economic and social make-up?

Hidden in these words are a lot of other questions. Some of which Bob has already given his views on.

I am not going to try and answer them in any sort of order as I don't think like that.

While this might seem like splitting hairs, the community has got to have a need for a Scouting Program. Areas change and we need to be aware of the changes. While all of my trips to Florida have been to the Mouse House, I have been informed that there are areas that are made up of mostly retired people who have no need for a Scouting program. The area of London that I am from has over the years changed from a middle class area to a place where the family houses have been made into apartments which sell for about $750k. These people don't have kids and over time the Scout groups have gone and sometime this month the District will go. Scouting in London is changing mainly due to areas not having enough children to make offering a Scouting program work. While I have no way of backing this up, I think that finding leaders from the new people would be very difficult.

"Effective Scouting Program" I kinda think if we were to ask 100 Scouters to define what an Effective Scouting program is? We would get a lot of different answers. Still the Book answer is that we do our best to make the Vision Statement and the Mission Statement of the Boy Scouts Of America a reality.

The Vision statement talks about offering young people responsible fun and adventure. Instilling in young people life time values and developing in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law. Training young people in Citizenship,service and leadership.It then says about serving America's communities and families with its quality , value based program.

The mission statement tells how the mission of the BSA is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

This is a real nice Vision and Mission statement. I would think if you were to meet with any Community leader and say "Hey this is what I want to do." You would be welcomed with open arms.

Still I think to be effective we need to get the youth to join. We need to offer them Fun, and Adventure. We need to give them opportunities to put the words of the Oath and Law into action. We need to provide opportunities for them to practice leadership. The we need list grows and grows.

I suppose that we could muddle our way through. Still that word Effective?

We have the Law and Oath

We have the Mission and Vision Statements.

We might want to look at what the aim of Scouting is.

The aim of the Scouting movement is to build youth into quality citizens by:

Building Character. Fostering Citizenship. Promoting Fitness.

To help us on our way we have the methods of Scouting.

Armed with all this we can start thinking about delivering an Effective Scouting Program. Or can we?

There is something missing? Yes we need Leaders and other interested adults. We also could do with an organization that shares the same values that we do. If this organization is part of the community that we hope to serve, so much the better.

If the Leader knows the community this is also a help but not a requirement.

The Leader knows that in the vision statement it said about serving the community and the families. He or She is going to work with the families and the community.

Unless he is a complete moron he/ she will know what the social and economic forces are in the area.He or she will do what he can to bring the words of the vision and mission statement to life.

He or she can be a person who sees things as they are and choose to muddle through and make do with the resources on hand. He or she could do that in any community. He or She could examine his or her values look at where things are today and think what things he would like to change. Bringing these changes about could become his mission, setting realistic goals to bring these changes about bringing more people on board that will share in his mission and help reach the goals is what being a true leader is all about.

Baden Powell had a vision that Boy Scouts and Scouting would bring about world peace. He was very upset when Germany started to rearm for the second world war. Long before that he seen the gangs in the streets of London. In Aids to Scoutmastership, he laid out his plan. People bought into the idea. The idea grew. So even if things didn't work out exactly as planned he still ended up doing a heck of a lot of good. Sure when the King asked him to resign his commission he could have said no thanks, I'm happy here in the army. He could have taken the easy road. But I am sure glad that he didn't.

Of course things don't happen overnight. But a couple of things that I have learned during my time on the planet is that you need a plan and it never hurts to ask.

Eamonn

[9muckraker7]

While the social or economic community does have an impact on the troop program, and that a negative environment may [objectively] have one troop at a disadvantage from other troops in a "better" environment (social or economic, I feel that a troop's way of adapting with the environment they are situated in often defines who they are, and their ways of delivering the methods and aims of scouting may be just as good as any other troop.

 

There are some "economic situations" that a troop might have when most of, if not all the scouts do not have the money for camping trips. Will they let this economic burden stop them from going camping? For most troops, no it will not, and the leadership of the troop will make it their purpose to deliver a good scouting program by giving the boys the opportunity to go camping. With that in mind, I feel that if a troop must raise money in some way for nearly every trip they may go on, the success, satisfaction, and brotherhood the scouts/scouters in the troop will feel will top that of most other "more advantaged" troops. And these feelings, combined with the successful carrying out of the other aims of scouting, build character. And let no one be judged by how much money he has in his pocket, but by the content of his character; let no one be judged by the society they're a part of, but by the CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER! Scouting is a thing of the spirit, and if these scouts have spirit, then they will have no problem at all carrying out a successful troop program.

 

(aahh that feels so good to say)

[Bob White]

BP wrote

"I am glad to hear that you do not believe that wearing a complete uniform is a requirement of a good scout program because I feel those are seperate issues in poor areas."

 

First Uniforming has NOTHING to do with this discussion.

 

Second, be careful to correctly represent my view. I believe uniforming is an element of a good scouting program, and that the uniform method needs to be understood and used in order to be the best leader possible for the scouts you serve.

 

Third, the whole point I (and others) have been trying to make is that income and the uniform method have nothing to do with each other. Good scouting and income have nothing to do with each other.

 

Proper use of the methods of scouting and the ability to accomplish the mission of scouting are not linked to wealth or poverty. They are the results of good leadership.

 

Uniforming is not an element of this discussion. I am simply looking for someone to give me a solid argument as to why quality unit scouting requires that the members be from a certain social or economic level.

 

Assuming that aurgument cannot be made, then one must look at how any method of scouting is not viable in any social or economic setting. You cannot it both ways. If good scouting is what it is based on its methods, and good scouting can be accomplished in any setting, then so can all the methods of scouting.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

First let me say that I don't know a whole lot about the non-traditional programs in Scouting and I am open to anyone who would like to educate me.

 

However it seems to me that the entire special needs program is based on the premise that socio-economic factors make the delivery of a traditional Scout program difficult or impossible. I whole-heartedly agree that the quality of a program is tied directly to the quality of adult leadership. But in thses special needs units the social and economic circumstances of the units and neighborhoods directly affect the quality of the adult leadership. Consequently the council provides paraprofessionals to lead the units and provides financial support at both the unit and individual level.

 

 

[Bob White]

I caution you against the word "impossible" since many low income areas have sucessful scouting programs, it has already been proven possible.

 

Difficult perhaps, but good scouting is just as difficult to do in wealthy neighborhoods. I have had to find leaders in both and they can be equally challenging.

 

"But in thses special needs units the social and economic circumstances of the units and neighborhoods directly affect the quality of the adult leadership."

 

No at all. It may effect the population density of such leadership, but not the quality. In any population the highest quality leaders are the rarest to find.

 

Again no one said the units would look exatly like those in higher income neighborhoods only that leadership is what makes the difference not income.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Just as an after thought.

I suppose there does need to be some sort of a time line.

While I agree that people of vision can and do make a difference. Everyone has to start some where. If the Leader is surrounded by people who don't buy into the vision and are content to not offer what the Leader sees as where we are heading, it could be a uphill task. Changing what might have passed as a Scouting program to an effective scouting program, more then lightly will not happen over night.

While this is slightly off the subject. I hope that Bob will bear with me.

I had lunch with our VP program the other week.

He said that he was waiting for the guys from National to come and draw up the plans for a new Cub World.This was the first that I had heard of this and I was shocked. I started going on about how did he expect to raise the money for a Cub World, when we were having such a hard time just balancing the budget.He looked at me and smiled. He then said"If I don't have the plan, how can I ever ask for the money."

He is a sly old goat, but what a great leader.

How often do we see on TV or in Scouting Magazine tales about people of vision. People who saw things as they were and made it their mission to change things.

Some time back KS posted that the kids where he Scouts don't get the big summer break like the Scouts around here do. Running a summer camp along the lines that most of us are used too, just wouldn't work. So he came up with a plan that would work. There are of course times when we have to be flexible in some areas.

I hope that I have never said "It's not in the rules." Unless it was to do with YP or the safety of our youth members. In fact I can't remember seeing having been said in these forums for a long time - But I could be wrong.

Eamonn.

[evmori]

Bob,

Will the programs be identical? Yes

 

Will the delivery of the program be different? Yes

 

Can the Scouting program be successful anywhere? Yes

 

SR540Beaver,

 

Bob has stated many time there is only one Scouting Program in the USA. He answered his own question "Will the programs be identical?" No. That's why I posted the way I did. Just trying to get some clarity.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10