Question to run by you all ... thought the topic was safer here :)

[Eamonn]

John

Rooster is a big Lad and has shown that he can hold his own. We can look at things differently and agree to disagree. From his past postings he has many qualities that I admire and respect.

fotoscout

I'm not sure if you have attended the 21st Century Wood Badge Course? If you have, you might want to look over your notes.Coaching and Mentoring is a troop presentation on the course. It provides a very good outline of the difference between Coaching and Mentoring and goes on to describe ways in which the skills of Coaching and Mentoring can be used to lead teams and individuals.Isn't that what we all do on a daily basis?

Eamonn

[Rooster7]

1st century, 5th century, 1950s, or 21st century Men were different, are different, and always will be different from women. Boys need men more so than women as mentors, not because women are inferior, but because when these boys become adults they will confront a mans world. I dont see why this is so difficult for so many to grasp.

[KoreaScouter]

I don't mean to put words in peoples' mouths, but I think many of us (maybe me included) consider "mentor" and "serve as a role model" interchangeably. Using the definition of mentor that I understand, I think a female or a male can serve equally well, given most circumstances. However, it gets a little fuzzier for me when I look at serving as a role model. Before I have to start ducking spears with Rooster, let me say that I think there are situations in which a female can serve as a role model for a male youth; educational, vocational, etc. But, I think that when we use term in the BSA context, we're talking mainly about serving as a male role model. In other words, modeling positive, wholesome adult male behavior in hopes the lads will behave similarly when they're grown. Again, I may be wrong, but I have more than a few Scouts, being raised by single moms, who have declined program delivery (ASM) roles and opted for committee positions because they want their sons to have...you guessed it, male role models in the execution.

 

I understand their point. My dad died when I was four, and my older brother provided mostly a bad example. My mom did everything she could, but steered me toward activities, like Scouting, that exposed me to positive male role models. I find myself using their examples to raise my son now. But, isn't that the idea?

 

I don't mean to come across as some sort of chauvinist, and hope my comments aren't taken that way. I think the optimal situation for any child is to be raised in a home with a loving mother and father. And, they learn a tremendous amount about how to deal with the opposite sex by watching how their parents deal with each other, and the give-and-take that comes with a healthy relationship. There's a role for an adult man and an adult woman, and they're not the same role.

 

I think it was George Carlin who said, to paraphrase, that if your kid needs a role model and you ain't it, you've both got a problem.

 

If any parents criticize the gender of a Pack's leaders, that's a golden opportunity to call those dads out and have them sign up...or shut up? I've had my experience, training, and "street creds" questioned on occasion, and I always respond by offering to step aside in favor of someone more experienced, more knowledeable, or more "local". Funny, no takers.

 

KS

[johndaigler]

Backpacker,

 

(I knew I'd get this comment from somone, also the one from Eamonn. You're not wrong about my post, but I would argue . . .)

 

I've been neck deep in disagreements with Rooster and others. And, not so long ago I would have fallen into the same trap that seems to have caught a couple of others. This important topic (and others) are complicated because they are at the core of what each of us believe. If we lose our conversation in emotions that result in hurtful, insulting comments, then we lose something more important than someone's ego, we lose their ideas.

 

As far as referees, I think I know what you're saying but we run the risk of thinking that you have to "get caught" to be doing the wrong thing. I'll bet you don't teach your boys that. Why would we accept it from each other? I don't think we need outsiders to step in and tell us how to behave. Now, I suppose you could argue that that's what I did in my last post. I'd agree with you if that was my first, but I was already involved in the conversation. So as part of the conversation, I feel it's OK for me to ty to stear that conversation.

 

Aren't you more interested in their ideas than their insulting judgements of others?

 

Eamonn, No doubt Rooster can crow for himself!! I was just trying to protect Foto and BadenP from Rooster's "You speak for Tolerance, but you're being Intolerant of me and my Ideas" lesson. I had to learn it last month, and since it's rather humbling to have hypocrisy shoved up your nose, I thought I would save them the angst!

 

Rooster, it's difficult to grasp that boys are most in need of men because that's been western civilization's tradition for thousands of years and look where we are. Boys become men no matter what anyone does for them or to them. The problem is that being a man is not enough. It's not enough, even to be a man of good character. We need to enlarge and improve the definition of "Man". It's men and their attitudes and behaviors that cause the world most of it's conflicts, most of it's anguish. For centuries, power has been in the hands of boys trained by men to be men. I think we need a new reference for our training manual!!! If we can become more, we might just save ourselves. Let's start one Scout at a time.

 

jd

[Rooster7]

KS,

 

I dont think we have any disagreement. You seem to understand exactly what I was trying to communicate.

 

John,

 

Boys become men no matter what anyone does for them or to them.

 

I strongly disagree. In my book, manhood is not so narrowly defined. A boy will often become a product of those around him those mentoring him. He does not become a man simply by passing through puberty.

 

It's men and their attitudes and behaviors that cause the world most of it's conflicts, most of it's anguish.

 

Wow. That sounds like the lead sentence in an article written by Bella Abzug. While I cannot deny your assertion, your statement does lack clarity and some degree of honesty. Yes, more men than women have caused this worlds problems. But what your statement does make clear is that there have been many good men. Nor does it acknowledge the existence of differences between good men and good women (although they certainly share many admirable traits as well). A boy needs to learn how to cope with life and relate to others as a man. I freely accept whatever labels people chose to sling my way. My conscious is clear. I know in my heart of hearts, and by the gift of reasoning that God gives each of us a boy is not a girl, and he needs to see and converse with men of good character to understand and embrace his future role as a man.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[scoutingagain]

Well I find myself in Rooster's corner on this one, although I'd express the point a little differently.

 

Instead of saying a man is "uniquely qualified" to be a mentor or role model for a young man I'd say a man is better suited in this role. Why? Simply because boys grow up to be men not women.

 

Instead of saying boys grow up to confront a man's world, I'd say boys grow up and must face the world from a man's perspective.

 

None of this negates the value women leaders can contribute to the program and I have yet to see anyone in this thread express the idea that women should not be allowed to be leaders in the BSA.

 

I believe boys of Boy Scout age can derive a great benefit from watching grown men interact with each other, youth and women leaders with repect. Observing this interaction simply cannot occur if a troop does not have male leaders. I just don't believe boys that were in a troop that had predominantly female leadership would have as much opportunity to observe respectful and leadership behavior amoung adult males if they are not present and that observation of men of character would be to the benefit of the boys. It simply is not the same as having even the most qualified all or predominantly female leadership do the same things.

 

SA

 

 

[cubbingcarol]

As a woman and den leader with 2 of my own boys, I would like to put my own perspective into the mix. I love doing things with my children that is why I am a leader. But when my boys become Boy Scouts and maybe even Webelos, I would be more than willing to step back and let a man lead them (assuming he was just as qualified). Maybe I too romanticize about living in another time, and if we could afford to live on one income, I would be happy to be the stay at home mother, who took care of her husband and children, but that is just the way I feel. I believe boys would benefit from positive male leadership, just as girls would from positive females. That is not to say that women couldn't or shouldn't lead them, just that men know what is like being a boy, just as I do a girl.

As far as the Baden-Powell arguement of him being reared by his mother, perhaps that is why he himself started Scouts, so that other boys without a father could have that positive male influence in their lives.

 

Just my honest, female, wife, den leader, motherly opinion,

Carol

[fotoscout]

Yes Eamonn you are correct, more coaching and some instructing, not mentoring in a general sense. Even in WB, mentoring is discussed in terms of taking your expertise and passing it on to the team. It was task specific, and not applicable to all.

 

I might go so far as to say that a good merit badge counselor could be considered a mentor to a boy who shows exceptional interest in the subject. However, I continue to think that for the purpose of this discussion, male leaders do not function as mentors to the boys any more that female leaders do. Even within the ranks of Scouting it takes a very special person to be mentor. Everyone is not a mentor. Most rank and file leaders in BSA will never truly be become mentors to anyone.

 

[Bob White]

I agree that for rounded development boys need male role models in their lives. However, in a a troop with all female leaders this is still possible. One of the methods of scouting is Association with Adults, and there are many opportunities for scouts to meet with and, learn from , and emmulate, positive male adult role models. Through skill presentations, merit badges, service projects, boards of review, and other venues, the Scouts have ample opportunities beyond their own unit leaders to meet male role models.

 

So the gender of the unit leader is not as important as their ability to use the methods of scouting.

 

BW

[Twocubdad]

There are many positive contributions Scouting can make to a boy. Positive association with an adult male is just one of them. Exercise, a sense of belonging, responsibility -- we could all come up with a long list of things we teach or instill in boys under the heading of character development.

 

But I believe that Scouting should be a supplement to all these things, not a boys primary source. KoreaScouter's quote from George Carlin was a good one: "If your child needs a role model and you ain't it you've both got problems."

 

I a parent brought a boy to a Scout meeting and said, "He's totally out of control, I want you to teach him some discipline" or "He's been arrested three times this year, I want you to teach him to be a good citizen," we would quickly point out that that isn't our job.

 

BSA can HELP teach discipline and citizenship; a Scout leader can be A good male role model or A good female role model. But only for an hour a week.

[Eamonn]

Photo, take a look at your notes and you will see that Mentoring is a big and very important part of the Leadership skills passed on at Wood Badge.

It could be that I'm reading something that isn't there? The message that I'm seeing is that we the adults are trying to make Boy's into men. I see what we are trying to do as helping young people make ethical choices over their lifetime.

I was raised in an Irish Catholic family, with a stay at home Mother.My Catholic education in England, was in the early days delivered by females, mostly Nuns. With the greatest respect in the world these Ladies were tough old birds. The system at that time didn't seem to promote females moving into the top positions.

At home, my Mother was also a tough old bird. She was the disciplinarian. I somehow think that my Father never lived up to her expectations in that department. He was however very much the head of the household. He was the bread winner and made all the important decisions.Her role at home was to "Keep House" and look after him and us kids.

As I grew up the task of educating me, seemed to pass on to nearly all male masters, not counting the female German teacher who spoke German with a Scottish accent!! As part of the plan to make us men, we played Rugby, Cricket and had very little to do with females. At that time, where I lived after school activities were limited to either the Boy Scouts or the Boys Club. I don't like being hit, so I opted for the Boy Scouts. I was to young to pay much attention at that time, but thinking back to the bathroom facilities, women didn't seem to be welcome. Scouting was very much like playing Rugby. We were an all male, rough around the edges club. Even at college it seemed that women were in short supply. Both as faculty members and as dates!!

Somehow I grew up with the idea that because I was a male I was better then girls. I never ever seen my Dad wash a dish, do laundry, change a diaper. He sure as heck was nor a "Girlie man". Women were put on this earth to serve me. Which was fine, but I hadn't had any dealings with them. - Boy was I in for an eye opener!!

Where I work, while the CEO and many of the top positions are held by males, all of my immediate superiors are female and are very good at what they do. I don't think that they do a better or worse job that a male could do.

Her That Must Be Obeyed, is a tough old bird. She doesn't allow OJ or me to get away with much. I am a far better cook then she is, she knows far more about the workings of our cars then I do. We treat each other with love and respect. Due to my almost all male upbringing,I had a hard time getting used to the idea that males and females are equal. OJ, takes this for granted, but for me it was a behavior that had to be learned. If we are really in the business of helping young people to make ethical decisions over the course of their life times we need to get off this male and female train. A good leader is a good leader, and a bad leader is a bad leader, it makes no difference if they are male or female.

Eamonn.

[BadenP]

Let me restate my point in another way, I agree with Rooster in principle that a male role model might be easier to relate to a boy and help him become a better man. The reality of todays society is that the traditional nuclear family is continuing to fade away, single parents trying to raise kids now have to serve as both mother and father. Is this good or ideal, no, but it is a reality that effects all aspects of society including scouting. Rooster's notion of only males can help boys become men is an outdated notion that unfortunately is not the reality of todays society or the future. Programs like scouting will have to adjust to accomodate this new reality, whether we like it or not.

[Backpacker]

JohnD

 

I see this issue as a divisive one where both sides bring up valid points and that there are no clear cut solutions. BP brings up the point of the reality of todays society which I find valid but a extremely sad commentary. I still believe letting things go and flow in this forum is the best way to explore these issues, everyone one has seemed pretty civil to each other. I have been impressed with all the posters views.

Carpe deum!!(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

[johndaigler]

Can we agree with Eamonn that:

"A good leader is a good leader, and a bad leader is a bad leader, it makes no difference if they are male or female." ???

 

We keep using phrases like "strong male role model" and "man of character". Is it necessary to be gender specific with these???

Rooster, you used a phrase that might serve me as a good example. "A boy needs to learn how to cope with life and relate to others as a man." Is that thought any less true if we leave off the final three words?? I want it to be more true, and without those three words, more important. Perhaps it isn't, yet, but I look at my sons and hope it will be for them.

 

Bella Abzug???? Wow, Rooster, you're dating yourself (and, unfortunately, me!!)!!! But, as a Native New Yorker, I understand and am honored by the comparison!!! Clear thinkers are difficult to find anywhere, at any time in history!!

 

There's no benefit to limiting boys' behavior models. Why wouldn't they learn from women demonstrating "actions of character" in the same way that they would learn from men demonstrating the same behavior? There's no such thing as "male actions of good character" or a different set of "female actions of good character".

 

Rooster, I'll certainly agree with you that men view the world differently than women. But, that's not a reason to help boys become "men". That's exactly the reason to help boys (and girls!) become "more". What is it about being a "man" that we want to hold on to so dearly that we think it makes us different and better than women?? Which character trait is so singularly vital to us that it's only a male trait and won't be found in women of strong character, skills, talent and intelligence?

 

My sons are years away from Manhood, but they will need to be "more" than their grandfathers were. They'll need to be "more" than I am. More "manly"?? I don't think that's the best way to describe it. If they don't get a handle on seeing and interacting with the world without using "more" than their "manness", the world will leave them behind. They'll be less successful, less satisfied, just plain "less".

 

 

 

"Nor does it acknowledge the existence of differences between good men and good women "

 

I can't acknowledge this, because I don't get it. I'll need your help. Beyond physiology, what are the differences?

 

 

CC,

Not to challenge you or try to discredit your thoughts -- My family has had the same concerns and discussions. We've probably arrived at different answers and different decisions, but they fit us. Our choices wouldn't work for your family, nor do I think my family's answers are "righter" than yours. I ask because I'm curious, and because I worry about my sons...

 

Do you think your sons are likely to end up with women in their lives who have the same views as you (appear to have) toward parenting, wifehood (is that a word??) and motherhood?? They won't have BETTER views, but, probably, they'll be different. With that in mind, where are your son(s) going to get the experience and information to deal with certain of their life situations? Will it help them to be led by men more than it will help them to be led by women? Won't your son(s)(and Mine) be better off with adults who fit Eamonn's description that I used back up at the top of this post? I hope I was polite enough here, because I'm truly curious. I believe your thoughts will help me better see the issue and the differing views.

 

BTW, maybe BP started scouting because his mother was such a good role model that he thought, with help, boys could grow up to be like her. Or, even scarier yet , that boys NEEDED help to have a chance to grow up to be like his mom!

 

jd

 

[Rooster7]

John,

 

"A boy needs to learn how to cope with life and relate to others as a man." Is that thought any less true if we leave off the final three words??

 

Theres nothing wrong with being a man. Were not better or WORSE than women but we are different. Im willing to recognize those differences. What are you afraid of?

 

Bella Abzug???? Wow, Rooster, you're dating yourself (and, unfortunately, me!!)!!! But, as a Native New Yorker, I understand and am honored by the comparison!!! Clear thinkers are difficult to find anywhere, at any time in history!!

 

DEEP sigh here - This explains a lot as to why we are butting heads on this issue.

 

In short, one man's clear thinking is another man's utter nonsense. PEACE.