Bush wants natural gas exploration next to Philmont

[packsaddle]

Catalina 25. Older model but nicely outfitted. Also with 4 stroke Honda outboard. I refer to it as the dog house. Spend quite a bit of time there. This troop isn't old enough yet to crew it without some instruction. We're working on that with a local club.

My dream (one of several) is an Island Packet, ready for the high seas.

[scoutingagain]

Well hello sailors!

 

24' Bahamian Islander with a 7.5 HP Johnson here. Built in '68 and still plying the waters off Boston and Massachusetts Bay. My wife and I have been sailing her as long as we've been together, over 20 years. It's the one place she's second in command. In past years we've sailed from Salem to Martha's Vinyard to Cuttyhunk Isand for 7 - 10 days at a time. Now we mostly daysail with an occaisional overnighter. The boat is a full keel boat and stands up to a heady sea. Just sailed her down the coast a bit to be hauled for the season. Great day on the outside with 3-5' swells, 10 - 15kt winds.

 

Havn't had the scouts out yet other than my son and a friend. We have had a couple of scoutmaster sails though.

 

Anyone gets to Beantown during the summer months, PM me and I'll be happy to take 'em on a daysail in Boston Harbor.

 

The best thing about the price of fuel this year was a noticable drop in the amount of motorboat traffic.

 

See ya on the high seas.

 

SA

[LovetoCamp]

Oh!!! That's good stuff. I'm ready for spring already. I'm a novice. SA, my SC22 has a retractable keel which weighs approx 500 lbs. How does that compare to having a full keel such as yours? I'm just not sure about taking the SC22 out on Lake Michigan, unless it's a nice friendly day.

 

We've made an agreement with another Sea Scout Ship to allow us to adopt their fourth boat, a Catalina 27' which is docked in a harbor on Lake Michigan. Between the 27' Cat and the SC22, we can get out on the water at the drop of a dime. I've never seen such an instant change in a kid as much as I have when you put a 15 year old in command of a boat with a crew waiting for orders and the wind blowing 15-17 mph. As soon as he took hold of the tiller his mouth was open in semi-terror at the task at hand, by the end of the day he was Cpt. Horatio Hornblower!!!!

 

We also have a 1976 Chrysler Pirateer 13'. Now that thing is a hoot. I took her out myself on a smaller lake (it was big enough) and boy did she scoot. I had to get up high on the high side a few times to keep her from going over.

 

I love this Sea Scouting stuff!!!

[Backpacker]

Bob

 

I think that Tall Buffalo Guard did a very good job answering your questions. I hope you read the content of his post, as you don't seem to want to accept my sources. Another poster gave you some other websites to review, and I referred you to the DOE how much more do you want? As far as the free market system goes it does not give us the right to totally deplete a non renewable resource as we have global responsibilities to the rest of humanity. As to your superior and crass attitude and responses from you, Trailpounder etc., all I can say is someday that arrogance will come back to you in spades. Your small mindedness and attitude are typical of whats wrong in America today. Your "Its my way or no way" philosophy is what got Bush into the mess he is in right now, and I am sure has backfired on you many times in your life. You need to quit viewing the world with tunnel vision and see the bigger picture.

 

I know that I will never change your mind but maybe you will explore more of the resources given here so you can make an informed decision rather than your usual emotional one.

[OldGreyEagle]

Backpacker,

 

I do not like it very much when what I consider ultra-conservative right wing militant types tell me how to save my soul and then fill me in on the "correct" interpretation (Correct interpretation, aint that an oxymoron?) of the bible and how they know they are right because God revealed the truth to them. I prefer to love and serve God on my terms and understanding, not theirs.

 

I similarly find it quite offensive when someone from what I can only gather is far left wants to fill me in on how I can be saved from myself as far as ecological issues go.

 

We wont be saving the world if we decrease our quality of life, if we lower our standard of living. We should be striving to raise others to our level. Ok, if we double the worlds consumption of petroleum based energy then we will run out twice as fast, ok, but any fear of that supposes that there will be no replacement source. I remember when Freon was declared illegal in Air Conditioning units, people wrung their hands and said automotive A/C units were doomed, a thing of the past. You know the A/C unit in my Scion Xb does quite the job and it doesnt use freon. At the turn of the century it was pretty much agreed that American cities had pretty much grown to their ideal size as increasing their size would lead to health problems based on the sewer and garbage disposal methods of the time so say nothing about the horse manure problem that would occur with increased population density. Doesnt seem to have been a real issue after all. 15 years ago the idea that I would have a plethora of friends and acquaintances that I have never met but still comunicate with would have been as foreign to me as having 120 TV channels available to me or the fact I wouldnt have to stand at the TV set reviewing each stations offering either. I dont sell the inventive mind of genius short in a capitalistic society. Am I living in a fools paradise that is heading for a fall or somewhere is there a boy and or girl who is now developing an energy source or technology that will allow us to thumb our noses to oil ( I wish)

 

One of my favorite classic Star Trek episodes has a scene where a disoriented Dr McCoy goes back in time to depression America, its the one where a very young Joan Collins plays a pacifist (and could still act). Dr McCoy surveys the scene and says something along the lines of "its looks like earth, mid to late 20th century, oh how I would love to see the hospitals where they would cut and sew people like so many pieces of cloth". Who knows how much contempt the people of 100 years from now will hold us users of gas powered internal combustion machines when to power their lives they only ....

 

I dont know the answer, but its not to accept less today

[LovetoCamp]

Bush is in a mess? How 'bout those free elections in Afghanistan? Leading in the polls. I don't just have one Bush/Cheney 2004 signs in my yards, I have two. My in-laws got one also, whether they wanted it or not!!! Good job, Mr. President!!!

[Backpacker]

OGE

 

First of all I don't know what the heck you are talking about, the last thing I care about is your soul or your religious beliefs. The only reference I made to the Bible was to be good stewards of the earth. The rest came from people like Teddy Roosevelt, Gandhi, and other people of history, so I think you need to reread the posts. Second the suggestions for energy conservation came from govermental agencies, the DOE, Dept of the Interior, US Fish and Wildlife Service to name a few. Many famous scientists have stated that we use far more than our share of fossil fuel, they were talking about making minor changes in our consumption habits not radically alter our lifestyle.

 

I see you and Bob have the same philosophy that America has some kind of special right to overuse the worlds natural resources to maintain an overly indulgent lifestyle. That viewpoint is both naive and comes from a lack of understanding of the problem of non renewable resources. Trailpounders sarcastic comments just go to prove this selfish mentality. OGE, resent my comments all you want just don't misquote or misinterpret them as some sort of religious crusade as you just did.

 

Trailpounder, you go right ahead and support Bush even when you are paying $5.oo or $10.00 a gallon at the pump and thousands more young adults continue to die in the middle east.

[packsaddle]

Yep, when the wind heels it over and the waves are lapping at the windows, the looks on their faces are priceless...for everything else there's Mastercard.

 

This discussion is digressing into complaints about how we address each other. Because of that, hijacking it into sailing is a breath of fresh air (pun intended).

Backpacker, as much as I applaud your passion for the environment, our current status wasn't created by this administration. Rather it is a result of generations of our 'culture' (for want of a better term). Our dependence on energy is similar in many respects to our dependence on technology. For better or worse, we have that needle in our vein and we are unlikely to suffer the pain of its removal, unless the cost is too great to continue the fix. And if or when we pay $10 per gallon, I suspect the same market forces that brought us here will issue whatever correction that is warranted.

The thing that bothers me is: it seems that to rush to exploit our domestic resources only hastens the day that we will be totally dependent on external resources. Seems to me that we should burn someone else's oil first, especially if it is less expensive to extract.

OGE, unless one of those youth figure out how to violate the laws of thermodynamics (and I think this is unlikely), we are going to continue to operate within the physical limits that we have today. Not too long ago (OK it was 1989) Pons and Fleischman claimed to have discovered "cold fusion". It was a huge splash in the scientific news. But it was bogus and now derisively termed, 'the Utah effect'. But it has spawned a whole culture of hyperbole and conspiracies: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html

Great fun, but I'd put my money (albeit not much of it) on the lottery.

[Bob White]

I look forward to a viable alternative energy solution being developed, but then I look forward to Backpacker answering those three questions I put before him...I wonder which will happen first.

 

Bob White

[Proud Eagle]

Let me say that in 2001 I started my Philmont trek in the Vidal area. In fact, most of my trek was actually off the Philmont property. So I probably have a bit more experience with the particular areas in question than your average Scout or Scouter.

 

Those areas are certainly beutiful. They are certainly worth preserving. However, they are not exactly untouched wilderness. There are gravel roads, jeep trails, and even a few paved roads in the region. You will see quite a few fences delineating various grazing lands. There are even a couple of public camp grounds in the area that are frequently filled with RVs. Also, a number of wells are operated to help water the livestock that is grazed in some areas.

 

So don't get the idea this is perfectly prestine wilderness. It is already slightly developed. (There are tracks of prestine land in the region, but the area as a whole is not untouched.)

 

Now our natural gas has to come from someplace. There is just no getting around the current demand for natural gas. Eventually some sort of alternatives will help decrease demand, but all projections indicate natural gas demand will increase dramatically. You see, gas is relatively effecient, and it burns very clean when compared to coal or oil. Therefore it is very attractive for heating and for electrical generation. It can also be used for various other things, including making synthetic gasoline.

 

It should be noted that the largest growth in natural gas use has been in electrical generation. The costs of building a new base load power plant that burns coal or oil are prohibitively expensive. So natural gas fired turbines are used in peak load circumstances to augment the power produced by the base load plants that burn coal or oil, or use nuclear or hydroelectric power. This has caused a dramatic increase in spring, fall, and particularly summer gas demand. This in turn has lead to major price increases in natural gas.

 

Now everyone knows that if the price is going up and the volume of demand is also rising, that is a major insentive to invest in new production. Gas is unfortunately somewhat difficult to transport from overseas locations, so most of the new supply will be domestic in the short term. (Though more liquified natural gas tankers are beeing built, as are new terminals for shipping natural gas, these will take quite a long time to make an impact on supply.)

 

That gets us back to the natural gas has to come from somewhere. None of us wants it in our back yard, or in the recreation area we use. But the truth is, there is no great desolate waste filled with natural gas ready to be expoited and sent to markets across the country.

 

So some wilderness areas will have to be used for natural gas production. If it is done carefully, this will not have a long term negative impact on the environment. If it is done poorly, well, that is pretty easy to figure out. In the end, the answer has to be allowing additional exploitation in select areas, under carefully controlled circumstances, while investing in the technologies of tommorrow in the hopes of reducing the demand in the long term.

 

However, the technologies of tommorrow are likely to run on natural gas. Natural gas is seen by many as a transition fuel between oil and hydrogen. This is largely due to its clean burning caracteristics, but also due to the relative ease of converting natural gas into hydrogen fuel. After all, even hydrogen has to come from some place. And the choices aren't real good. Sure, we can collect some as a byproduct of other things, but a great deal of it will need to be processed out of other materials, like oil or natural gas.

 

So tommorrows technologies won't decrease natural gas demand, but will instead increase it.

 

Now the technologies of next week, or next month, well, now there is some real hope. But those things won't be technologicly mature for decades, and even if they were, they wouldn't be affordable any time soon.

[scoutingagain]

TP,

 

To respond to your question regarding a full keel boat. It's substantially heavier and will be more stable in waves than a centerboard boat. It also has a bit more room in the cabin than a compable length centerboard boat. It is slower in light wind though and you certainly would have difficulty trailering it. My offer of a daysail on Mass Bay stands.

 

To stay sort of on topic, I sailed probably over a hundred miles this summer on day sails and used maybe a little more than 6 gallons of gas.

Some of the larger motor vessels in the harbor can't even get out of the Marina without using that much fuel.

 

But TP, why I thing President Bush may be in trouble. The last few weeks I've noticed Kerry stickers, not on your typical Cambridge grey haired, ponytailed professors driving Volvos or Saabs, but on pickups driven by ironworkers, carpenters, tunnel workers, etc. Four years ago, even here in Massachusetts, you wouldn't have seen those stickers on a construction worker's vehicle for a democratic presidential candidate.

 

Time will tell.

 

In the mean time I believe the free market will help solve our issues with oil consumption. Oil is over $54/barrel today. Twice what it was a year ago. At that price, conservation measures begin to look more attractive as do alternative energy sources. The great thing about a free market is you don't need Big Brother Government to step in to decide what to conserve or not, consumers will conserve and use efficiently those resources that cost more and move to those resources that cost less. Gee I love capitalism.

 

 

 

SA

 

 

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

SA,

 

Thanks for the offer and if we ever get up that way, we'll take you up on it. So in return, if your out our way, we'd be glad to take you out on Lake Michigan.

 

As for Kerry, I don't like him. I have a special burn in my heart for the counter-culture types: Abbie Hoffmans, Jerry Ruebens, Tom Haydens, Jane Fondas, and John Kerrys of the 60's. Him being our President, just ain't right. The primary process shook out, and he's what we got. Did, I say, it just ain't right?

 

I could have certainly got behind a class act like Joseph Lieberman, but it is what it is. I don't understand how labor and working people can get behind a a billionaire, who yachted with the Kennedys as a kid. Wasn't W out there chopping wood like Abe Lincoln?

 

P

[scoutingagain]

Yes TP, we all know the heartwarming story of young GW Bush growing up the poor son of an oil executive and former government official. Making his own way through the failed oil executive trade and becoming a baseball team owner and Governor. It's always heartwarming to see how someone can overcome such humble beginnings and set backs and convince folks he's a regular guy by pretending to mispronounce nuclear and split wood.

 

Can't say I'm a big fan of Mr. Kerry either. He is a Liberal, meaning there's not an organized labor group he doesn't like, hence the support from all those commi union guys.

 

Me, I voted for McCain in the Republican primaries 4 years ago and hopefully will get to vote for either him or possibly, Mitt Romney, our Republican Governor four years from now, assuming we survive another four years of whoever we end up with.

 

Come on over and come for a sail, I'm sure we'd have some fun. I'll even take you by the Kennedy Library where you can see JFK's yacht. If I do get out to MI, I'll give you a buzz as well.

 

 

 

SA

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

Giuliani/Schwarzenegger 2008!!!

 

Nuklure power, the polution solution!!!

[EagleInKY]

The Shwartzenegger Amendment to the U.S. Constitution would have to be passed before then, which is highly unlikely. I agree with SA, I believe Mitt Romney will be the guy to watch.