Bush wants natural gas exploration next to Philmont

[Backpacker]

BW

 

It always amazes me that everything to you is always black or white. This issue is not "just that simple." There are so many alternatives to drilling at Philmont. Why you might know about scouting it is obvious your knowledge of conservation and exploration of natural resources is extremely limited. Several posters here have suggested alternatives to drilling in Philmont that are much more viable. Your simplistic response proves to me your grasp of the situation is an unrealistic and uninformed one. Geologists with the USFS, NPS and BLM are currently working on a plan to protect our wilderness areas from unnecessary drilling. As Teddy Roosevelt said, "We have an obligation to future generations to not only be guardians of our wilderness areas but to leave an even larger legacy for each succeeding generation." Every year we lose more of our natural heritage to development and greed. We need to stop driving these gas guzzling SUV's, etc. The USA consumes 30-40% of the fuel produced in the world every year. We care more about our own personal consumerism than the creation God gave to humanity. We are to be its stewards not its destroyers.

[tall buffalo guard]

as noble as that sounds, calling ourselves the stewards of the earth and actually being the stewards of the earth is also a simplistic notion. but youre right. until we find a way to start holding ourselves and others accountable for the environment, things wont change. anyone have any suggestions outside of writing our senators?

[Bob White]

Backpacker.

 

The drilling is not AT Philmont it is outside of Philmont. EVRYWHERE that isn't Philmont is outside of Philmont. EVRYWHERE is outside of somewhere. You cannot have an energy program based on NIMBY.

 

WHERE in the U.S. do you feel is a good place to explore for more petroleum resources Backpacker?

 

SUVs are not the only thing that use petroleum products. The nations energy demands grow daily as homes are built, businesses grow and develop. Energy is not just about cars and trucks.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Backpacker]

As usual Bob you again miss the point. The US consumption of fossil fuel is way above the average per capita than all the other industrialized nations of the world. Americans do very little to nothing in cutting down their consumption, such as buying fuel efficent vehicles, which by the way Bob are responsible for most of our fuel usage. The government, especially under Bush, has done nothing to force industry to take measures so they consume less. Lets talk about homes, most people in the middle of winter have their furnaces going full blast, all the lights in the house are on, etc, wasting energy. Did you know Bob that if people and businesses turned down their thermostats by just 5 degrees it would reduce our national fuel consumption by 20-25%. If people drove vehicles that got at least 25 miles to the gallon on the highway that would add up to another 25%. Do you think for a minute that most Americans are willing to make those sacrifices, no they are not. It will not be until the supply of fuel is so low and costs so much that we will be forced to make these changes. Destroying our natural wilderness areas to suck up every last ounce of fuel is not either the answer or solution.

 

It is government and corporate officials who have this holier than thou attitude that because we are Americans we have a right to waste 2 to 3 times more fuel than all the other industrial nations that we have had no incentives for conservation or alternate fuels research or development. Bob, their attitude is remarkably similiar to your own. The oil companies have effectively blocked alternative fuels R&D for over 50 years even though the technology exsists to move ahead. The solutions are not very difficult but will require a change in our lifestyles and consumer habits.

[Bob White]

Backpacker writes

"The US consumption of fossil fuel is way above the average per capita than all the other industrialized nations of the world."

 

So I have to ask...As compared to what other industrial nation that produces as much as the US, and with the quality of life equal to the US?

 

"The government, especially under Bush, has done nothing to force industry to take measures so they consume less.

 

Welcome to America and the free enterprise system. American like their cars. If the car industry is ever going to take fuel efficiecny seriously it is not going to come from the whitehouse no matter who the president is. Market changes are consumer driven.

 

"Lets talk about homes, most people in the middle of winter have their furnaces going full blast, all the lights in the house are on, etc, wasting energy."

 

You know this to be a current fact in most peoples homes? Please share your specific resource for that figure.

 

"Do you think for a minute that most Americans are willing to make those sacrifices"

 

I do not claim to know most Americans nor how they feel on all the on myriad of topics that adults are exposed to during the many stages of their lives. Again I am curious as to your source of information.

 

"It is government and corporate officials who have this holier than thou attitude that because we are Americans we have a right to waste 2 to 3 times more fuel than all the other industrial nations that we have had no incentives for conservation or alternate fuels research or development. Bob, their attitude is remarkably similiar to your own.

 

Backpacker if your knowledge of most Americans is as far a field from the facts as you total lack of knowledge about me and my views on alternative fuels, then you have a real problem with your "facts".

 

If your rudeness to me is a sampling of what your posts will be like, you may have a real problem participating on this board.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[LovetoCamp]

That reminds me, better top off the Suburban after church!!!

[Backpacker]

Mr. White,

 

My stats all come from the US Dept. of Energy annual reports and are as solid as stone, whereas most of your ideas seem to come from your own imagination. I am being no ruder to you than you are to me and most of the other posters in here. You left once before for what you claimed as people ganging up on you, it seems you enjoy dishing it out but you can't take it. If anyone has trouble in here it will be you and your know it all attitude.

[OldGreyEagle]

All kidding aside, what report does the DOE or other govermental report have that says "most" americans blast their furnances during the weather? I would like to read that. Actually, the country as big as it is, and with the sothern and westrn states, I am not sure how many Americans blast their furnaces at all. Those in FLorida?, Arizona? New Mexico? In LA? San Diego? Texas?

 

Next, I would like to know the source of the prescience you claim to have that knows the mind of the American public. The notion that "most" Americans wont sacrifice. Every day I see scarifce, it may not be for items you wish, but the sacrifice is just as real to the person

 

The American public may well be responsible for the energy consumption you claim, (the furnance thing not with standing) but rather lower our standards, why not raise others? Miles per Gallon standards have been out quite a long time, but GM didnt get into hybrid mode until Toyota nnd Honda proved it could be done and there was a market. What was more compelling, Governmental regulations or the force of the marketplace?

 

 

[Bob White]

Somehow I do not see the DOE using a term so statistically void as "most".

 

I welcome your evidience that I ever took a leave from this forum because of posters "ganging up on me". That never happened.

 

"It seems you enjoy dishing it out but you can't take it."

 

Please show me where in this thread I "dished it out" towards you.

 

In fact I will offer the same question to the moderators.

Did I in any way attack or insult backpacker?

 

BW

 

 

[Backpacker]

OGE the DOE produces annual reports about fuel consumption in our country by the leading experts in the field. Texas, California, et. al consume most of their energy in the summer with their air conditioning. And no DOE did not use the term blast, I did, their verbage was more in the line of overly excessive use. These reports are available by writing the DOE in DC.

 

Bob, the way you respond to most people in here I consider rude. If you had a valid point in this thread you never backed it up with any facts. You can attack me all you want as it doesn't really bother me. but one thing I will do in my replies to you is to show that the great Bob White is not the expert you have bluffed people into thinking you are. That also is true in the field of scouting. So Bob if you want to verbally spar with me all I can say to you is BRING IT ON !

[LovetoCamp]

I think he's an expert on Scouting. Lie and tell us you have a hybrid car?

[Bob White]

When did I attack you?

 

Lets look at the points I have raised and you tell me what points require validation.

 

1) The proposed drilling is neither in Philmont, or at Philmont, it is outside of Philmont.

 

2) Any drilling has to be done somewhere, and somebody will dislike that location.

 

3) SUVs are not the only thing that use petoleum based resources.

 

4) As our population and economy grow so does our need for energy and petroleum based fuels.

 

5) We are a free enterprise system of ecomomy.

 

6) Market changes are consumer driven.

 

What do you find fault with in the accuracy of those statements.

 

Here are four questions posed to you which you have totally avoided and I would still appeciate an answer to.

 

1) Where in the US would you approve drilling for new petroleum resources?

 

2) What other industrial nation, that produces as much as the US, and with the quality of life equal to the US, uses less fossil fuels?

 

3) What is your specific source of statistics that says "most people in the middle of winter have their furnaces going full blast, all the lights in the house are on"?

 

3) Where in any post in this thread did I attack you?

 

Bob White

 

[packsaddle]

Before this gets closed as a 'board of ill repute' here are a couple of resource sites for numbers (although I am not sure anyone really cares).

For multistate comparisons (mostly for 2001, I think):

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/states/_multi_states.html

Note that the numbers are totals and not per capita, some additional work is needed to normalize for comparisons.

For some rather dated comparisons:

http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html

Some of these numbers are nearly a decade old so I'm not sure of their applicability today.

Here are some per capita data for 2003:

http://drc.cfed.org/measures/energy_cons.html

The parent site for that is also useful for other data.

 

World comparisons are not quite as easy but here is a site to begin:

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/publications/reports/ser/oil/oil.asp

I included only the one for oil but there are similar summaries for most other energy resources.

On a per capita basis, we don't fare that well in comparisons to countries that have similar standards of living. Here is a table to ponder:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablee1c.xls

We're not the worst, but we're grouped with the worst. Assuming that efficiency is the reciprocal of per capita consumption, we're not very efficient and there are substantial savings that could be attained. However, as long at the price (cost) of energy remains low, we are going to tend to waste it.

 

The growth of energy use by populous countries such as China is a huge factor in market pricing (and yes, if "shock and awe" had actually worked, things would be better also).

I sympathize with the notion that energy demand is not the same thing as energy need. However, as BW notes, we are in a market economy, one that this country devoted many decades to establish throughout the world...and largely succeeded. Now we are part of the global market and we are there for better or worse. I, for one, would not put that genie back in the bottle even if I could. But this was decades in development and everyone knew the score.

 

TrailPounder, I do commute daily in a small car but having just filled my Ford Expedition (back from a troop outing) I guess I have to admit...yours is bigger (snicker, snicker).

 

[tall buffalo guard]

id like to get in on this and let my opinions out

 

1. "The proposed drilling is neither in Philmont, or at Philmont, it is outside of Philmont". -i say who cares where it happens. drilling is bad on the environment no matter where it occurs.

 

2. "Any drilling has to be done somewhere, and somebody will dislike that location". -no kidding

 

3. " SUVs are not the only thing that use petoleum based resources"

-true, but they set a dangerous trend in that they are wasteful of those resources and people are beginning to see that waste as socially acceptable. thats not good.

 

4. "As our population and economy grow so does our need for energy and petroleum based fuels." -ah, but what of the potential of cheap, renewable fuel technology? must we remained locked into this obsession with fossil fuels?

 

5. "We are a free enterprise system of ecomomy." -yep.

 

6. "Where in the US would you approve drilling for new petroleum resources?" id go on an extremist limb and say...nowhere.

 

7. "What other industrial nation, that produces as much as the US, and with the quality of life equal to the US, uses less fossil fuels?"

-how does our quality of life suffer when we lower our household temperatures 5 degrees or make similiar sacrifices to help save the environment?

 

8. " What is your specific source of statistics that says "most people in the middle of winter have their furnaces going full blast, all the lights in the house are on"?" -well, in missouri it gets terribly cold, and that generally causes people to turn up the thermostat...sometimes common sense is just as good as stats.

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

I'd like to see you pull a 22' South Coast SC22, which btw, I owe you a thank you for the wise counsel in choosing a Sail Boat, with a Honda Hybrid. The 22' trailerable boat is perfect for our needs. Put a crew of Sea Scouts, food, gear, sails, 9.9 HP outboard, PFDs, and you have a load. When the wind doesn't blow, boy do we burn up some gas in the outboard while motor sailing. Incredible, but boy do we have a blast.